Thank you for coming on this wonderful Monday afternoon, first day of fall, at least the last time, something like that stuff equinox for the astronomy, since I'm in physics and astronomy to write, George, I should know your the astronomer, physicist. Summer is done. We're backyard. My name is Norman Wagner and I have the honor and privilege of chairing the agenda at Faculty Senate Committee. This file, and obviously the, the, the emotions that will hopefully come to the Faculty Senate will be based on activities that have been ongoing on this campus for awhile in terms of formulating and appropriate genetic program for our students, which I think is a very important thing. So we're very pleased to have a good turn out to this meeting. And I'm sure people will be filtering in as the day goes on in their classes cancel. We have scheduled until five o'clock if we eat the whole time on a few brief things. Fred are expert on Robert's Rules. Reminds me a couple of things. One is we are being recorded. So the Faculty Senate open hearings are recorded, just so you know, the other thing is that the general rules that are open hearing, as I'm told, are that know that people should not speak for more than two minutes so that we all get a chance to speak. That faculty, of course, you should identify yourself for the record. Souls who normally are from when you, when you're speaking, you should refrain from speaking twice until everybody else has had a chance to be heard it once. And I'll do my best, if necessary, to try to make sure that we get a chance for everybody to express their opinion here to start and to set the tone for what we're going to at the reasons and then the actual items for discussion. We'll first hear from Nancy, our Deputy Provost, Nancy Brick House, who will tell us a little bit of the background and motivation for what we're doing. So Nancy, thank you for coming. >> It's great to see a nice turn out on this afternoon. Kind of an interesting experience for me. And that last winter I actually had faculty coming to me and saying, Nancy, we've gotta do something about general, that it is not in good shape. And it was also muddied by motivated by people in our Office of Assessment and added Institutional Research who were looking at a forthcoming periodic review report that would be due to middle states by June of 2016, where we would need to be able to say what progress we were making in terms of general education. And so these two concerns kinda came together at the same time. A true kind of faculty desire. This was also taking place during the faculty Winter Institute that many, many of you are probably familiar with, where people were concerned. That we really have not articulated what it is. We want our students to know that we have no idea how well the courses that we say meet those requirements actually do and that we've not then is the job that we need to do in terms of being able to say what our students have actually learned. And so with this, with this kind of push, if you will, and I should also say I had the incoming faculty senate president, say G is, I'd like to get this done on my watch. >> You put all those things together. >> I think well, I think the time is right. >> We're also beginning a new round of strategic planning. >> And with the new round of strategic planning comes the opportunity to also lead to find what the undergraduate experience is like here at the University of Delaware. And so we began to put together a group of people to work on these issues. >> We carefully populated these committees so that they would be a good synergy both between the Faculty Senate as well as what the Strategic Planning Committee. >> And, and so we've had of a group and John politicos let a group that has worked this summer doing a lot of very intensive reading and thinking very carefully about the future that our students face and what that means in terms of the education we should be providing them now. And so with that, we charge this group. >> And of course, Dominican has been very much in the loop on all of this as well and very supportive of this effort, as has the Strategic Planning Committee. >> And I think they now have a set of recommendations that is ready for feedback. But the hope is to be able to get through the Senate this year some new general education goals, as well as by this spring, begin to articulate ways of delivering and assessing these new goals in time to also be responsive to state requirements from our competitors. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Jon without back to know what sign you will. >> Little questions. So after Job's presentation, so we're keeping the presentation materials brief mailed out to the faculty. So John Bosco, the head of the task force, will now form a some good results today. Jump back up top. >> Thank you. Normally get antsy and thanks to everybody for being here today. I appreciate you taking the time this afternoon to come and talk about general education. As Nancy was saying, We've had a task force that's been in place for since the spring semester. And what I want to do today is I just want to tell you briefly about the work that the task force has been doing. A little bit about what the groups are, who the groups are, and then I want to tell you where we're at. And then I want to sit down and I want to listen because the real reason that we're here today is to put something in front of you and to get some feedback from, well, from this group. So the way that things are structured right now, there's really three different, sorry, there we go. There's really three different groups that have been working on this. So there's the Faculty Senate, General Education Committee, which you see all the way over on the right. That's the committee that norm Wagner is is, is chairing. And what will happen is there's these other two committees that are sitting over here which are really advisory to norms committee. What we'll be doing is making recommendations to norm. That committee will be accumulating resolutions. And those resolutions will go in front of the faculty senate and hopefully be approved by the faculty Senate. Now these other two committees that you see over here, the one on the far left, the steering committee. This is a larger committee that was put together to attempt to get representation from every college across the Across the university. And you can see there's quite a diverse range of people on there, that smaller committee in the center there, the core working group. And if you look around, you'll see those folks mostly scattered around here. Hopefully they all have note pads in front of them. In our assiduously taking notes today, that group is the group that's doing the right. So the document that Karen sent out to you that you have in front of you? That's the group that put that document together. And what they're looking to do here today is to get your feedback, to take lots of good notes and then go back and discuss with these other two committees and make changes to that document and figure out how we want to go from here before we make recommendations to the fact that these heterochromatin now this process is really occurring in two phase one. I want to talk about each of the phases in the phase that we're here to really discuss and focus on today. So in the first phase, what we're attempting to do is to formulate a new set of Janet goals. And I want to note that this is not really a phase that began in spring 2014. This is really a phase that began back in 2011. So, so back in 2011, the University put together a faculty committee to do a self-study for Middle States accreditation. And if you go back and you read that self study, you'll see that there's quite a bit in there about general education. And then if you read the middle states are creditors report back to Udi, you'll see that they also said had quite a bit to say about general education. And in the intervening three years, various incarnations of the Faculty Senate, General Education Committee have built on that work and tried to put together sort of a new set of goals and a new set of planes. Virgin it, what this task force has been put together to do is to bring all of these plants to fruition. So what we're attempting to do is to do this in two phases. The first phase is this, this one up here where what we'd like to have is a recommendation to norms committee for a new set of gen ed goals to go before the Faculty Senate this fall. As soon as we've hinted that often norm will begin and we've already begun working on implementation. That is, how do we get to those goals? So that'll be a review of all of the current Gen Ed requirements and perhaps rethinking our generative requirements and rethinking the overall structure. In the spring, probably in February, we'll have a second open hearing like this where in front of you will be able to put an implementation plan. We'll be asking for feedback on that implementation plan. And again, what we will do is make a set of recommendations norms committee, and that'll become resolutions that will hopefully go before the Senate in the spring and hopefully be pass by by the end of the academic year. I want to give you a little bit of background just in case you haven't read The Middle States for good or it's been a while since you've read it. When when our committee sat down and we looked at the Middle States report, when we looked at the work of the faculty senate committee for the last several years when we looked at basically lots and lots of documents, lots and lots of work that had been done. There were a few common things that, that kept coming up. The first one was that we needed to revise their goals. And in particular, we need to revise our goals so that they were concise, so that there were clear, and I think most importantly says so that they were measurable. Right now, when you look at your tennis set of goals, it's not at all clear how to assess those, so it makes it very difficult for us to be able to say We know that students are achieving x when x is not something that's, that's so easily measurable. It's also one of the recommendations that, that the, the faculty committee that wrote the self-study made was that we needed a a significant common first-year experience. And when you read the report from the middle states of creditors, they said Yes, yes, you do. So I whole heartedly agreed with that. We need to ensure that our students have quantitative literacy in our current set of goals. Quantitative literacy is something that we called for, yet it's very hard to identify in our current general education implementation where students achieve such literacy. I think that's not at all, not at all apparent to most people. We need to assess and perhaps revise or multicultural requirement for what? For similar reasons. And we also stated very clearly that we need to ensure a high quality advisement across the university. This was seen as something that was necessary, a necessary companion to being able to implement a, a strong Janet plant. I'm not going to read all of this. I just wanted to show you some of the the types of texts that you'll find in the in the middle states report. You'll see things like with an eye towards establishing a coherent and integrative program of undergraduate education. And making the foia AND more integrated experience and expanding a uniform model across the university. So again, if you haven't read that lately, I encourage you to go back, at least take a look at the parts that pertain to general education. So it's sort of orient yourself to this multi-year process that we're engaging in. I also wanted to orient you to the latest set of Middle State standards. So this is a set of standards that was just passed by Middle States in December. It doesn't differ greatly from past sets of standards. But I think it's worth taking a look at because what they really who was they set the flow, right? So middle state says is if you want to be an accredited university, you have to have a general education program that at least does this. >> Alright? >> And this is specified in two different bullets. The first one talks about you have to have a program of sufficient scope that you can draw a new students, draw students into new areas of intellectual experience. You have to expand their cultural global awareness. And you have to prepare them to make well-reasoned judgments outside, as well as within their academic field. At the second bullet talks more specifically about skills that are required of any general education program. In particular, it says that your program, you have to have a curriculum in place so that you can demonstrate that your students have the skills of at least oral and written communication, scientific and quantitative reasoning, critical analysis and reasoning, and technological competency. And then they go on to say that depending on your university's mission, you can also have a program that includes the study of value ethics and diverse perspectives. As I said a moment ago, this is really the floor, right? This is setting the floor at a university is of course, free to go beyond this. And I think in the document that most of you have in front of you, I think you'll see that we were trying to go a little bit beyond this. So let me talk a little bit about the document that you have in front of you. Hop and let me try and say it this way. As these groups have worked over the past six months or so, they've tried to intellectually separate this thinking into two different two different things, right? Whether we're calling in this document purposes and what we're calling objectives. And let me try and explain the difference between the two. The, the purposes really answer the question, why do we have a general education program at all? So it's very much from the faculty perspective. It saying we have a general education program. We believe General Education is important because at the end of the day, we want any UD graduates will look like this, right? We want every UD graduate to be capable of civic engagement and aware of their intellectual strengths and interests. These are the things that we want our outputs to look like. Alright, so that's the purposes of general education. When we think about what we're calling objectives, which you might call goals. We call them goals and then got feedback and said no column objectives. So we changed our mind when we think about objectives. This is from the student perspective. This is what we're saying to the students while you're here, learn these things and you'll look like that person that we had on the other sheet. It'll look like the person we want to produce. So these are the key skills and competencies were saying that students need to learn while they're here. And there's five of them. I think you can, you've hopefully all read them, read critically, communicate effectively, and so on. You'll see some echoes of the middle states there, but you'll also see some things in there that are a little bit different. Now what we would really like for you today is feedback on these two things. So I'm going to put these up here and leave this up here and turn it back over to norm. What we want to know is these purposes and these objectives. Do we have them write, excuse me, are we missing things to have things in here that we shouldn't have in there? Do we have really great things in there to have really bad things? Any comments on the purposes and goals we're looking for? Your feedback, as I've said, will incorporate that and we'll use that in the next draft thinking, yeah, great. >> So the floor is open for discussion and just so that enough people, we get a chance for everyone to speak. What I thought we'd start off buys well will reward those who sit in the front row. And we'll go from your left to right, around. And anyone who wishes to comment or have a point of discussion, we'll start here with anybody in the first row like to say at the moment, come back. Okay, clive, first row and the second row, the points of discussion. Well, second rows, 50, third row. Fred does. Does anybody in third row, which is the strictly undergraduates, are we talking about graduate as well? >> You've got the fourth row. >> That's fine. >> Identify yourself, Nikki castle. >> And I kinda estimates I jump again. >> No problem. >> So the question is, is it strictly undergrad undergraduate education? >> Are we talking about this for a graduate as well? >> Applying the graduate. You want to handle that question? >> I have an opinion, but maybe I'm happy with it. Sure. >> Much on the focus, certainly in undergraduate education. Middle states if requires that you evil, say your incoming graduate students have a certain level of general education. But this is not in any way focused on changing graduate education. >> I remember graduate students are required to be generally educated when they get here or lab to show that we don't reveal things. So back to the yes bin at the David Bellow may Mathematical Sciences. >> At the present time, the, we've been kind of remove most of us on the mathematics faculty from the advisement of undergraduates show my information may be slightly outdated, but I believe at the time, at the present time, that there's a really strong emphasis on keeping the breadth requirements group a, B, and C, and D, I guess at the level of elementary courses. >> And this makes it kind of difficult if a student, in fact, at one time I had I was asked to write a letter, I think because a student wanting to use math 222 as as a group D requirement. And I think we had to appeal to the college committee or something because they said mapped to 21 was the only elementary course student already had a knowledge of calculus at that level. So 222 was an obvious place to go. >> So I think we should loosen up on insisting that only elementary courses count. >> If a, if a, if a student comes in with a knowledge of 18th century American art, we shouldn't force them to take some kind of introductory Art History collection, for example, if they want to broaden the, extend their knowledge further of art history. >> But really I'm an engineering manager at whatever they do. >> I think I think that's a great comment and I'm sure we'll get just, just briefly. The idea of purposes and goals is to really allow us to have that discussion. And the implementation we select those courses is a topic for next semester in terms of that. But if you look at the purposes and the objectives that we have up here, I don't think there's anything in there that would force them to say no to that, right? >> I agree. >> I just wanted to emphasize it because it is a contrast from present practice. Hey, Nancy's comment earlier that also indicates, you know, the idea of getting away from a cookbook checklist. I advise be rotate through and get a course of freshman buys them all the way through till I graduate, I think one of the five years. But and then we get that a freshman is a discouraging conversation to have with freshmen who come in and say, gee, I'd have to check off these boxes, what do I do that and my usual comment as well. You're at a university, it's once you think about what you want or let's have that discussion, I send off usually very upset about that because I just want to check off the box. Right? That's one of the concerns that I so want to while a third row will keep going. >> But yes, jump bearings, time and history department objective number three, what exactly are you thinking of in terms of doing it? Sort of thing, membership in a score or something. >> And again, I'll say that this is an objective implementations the next phase. So it was it will amount were >> And so let's get going on the third eye problems. >> People get up front that they get talkers. But anybody? >> Yes. Thank you. >> John Morgan in physics and in the College of Arts and Sciences. >> We have had a so-called second writing requirement for several years. >> And I think on the whole, it's good that we do require our students to take at least one writing course other than the freshman English. >> But unfortunately, I think that if you have a second writing requirement, most students infer that that's all they need to pay. And so for example, you suggested they would benefit from having taking a third, writing quarters to get even better at very few of them do so. >> And I think that it would, I think one thing we really could think about doing is having some sort of degree with distinction in writing, which would involve students taking something like one writing course per year in each of their four years. >> Here as well. >> Articulated the need to write effectively is captured in the objectives. >> And then the question is, how do we show mental states that we've met those objects? How do we evaluate and how do we actually show that we met those? I think talking about general education versus the honors program. Mercury builds distinction that it's important that we recognize that the mission of the university and the general education, who are for everybody, right? All students and a certain minimum that we brands someone blue hen with a degree they had. There's a certain pride that we should all be able to take this faculty that the person walking out of here with that diploma, right, and going off into the world is enabled to do these things. But that, so I do think there's a bit of a distinction between the honors program type. It's about, but certainly something we have to show. And middle states that were able to assess that are delivering. >> It will start on or throat gets to identify yourself as Steve Hastings to Dr. Ames comments, I think he must be talking about the arts and science ranked requirements and not the universe that mean breadth requirements because there is no ABCD right at the same level. >> I'm pretty sure math 221 is on the mathematic Bryn Mawr. A clarification. And just so you know, it's the Steve is the chair of the Faculty Center, the hardest working committee probably on the University of Chicago. And certainly they're playing a very important role and not only thinking about this, but also a very active role in this, but also playing a very important role in thinking about the patient later on that semester. You're a lot more about that later on. That was not my question. My question number five, I know I know I understand how Number five applies to all students. >> Excellent, excellent question. And John, so I'll make a few comments. So, so one I would say when you look at the middle level requirements for middle states For any university, you need to show quantitative reasoning and scientific. And so that's, that's a necessary requirement just for accreditation to be an accredited universe. >> That's I think in that sense, I think it gives sort of a fairly universal thing, right? >> Say what's new there is that statement about computational normal. But you go the next slide for a second. >> Yes, sir. >> So this is the description of the object. I hope you've had a chance to read this, and this gives you a little bit better insight in terms of computational thinking. This is, this is, I think something new and something a little bit different than what you typically see in Arjun and program or most Janet. And I think what we're trying to do is recognize here that one of the biggest changes that we've seen in the modern world is the address of the computer as a tool. And it's changed the way that we're able to think. It's changed the way that we're able to think as human beings. And there's a set of skills, for example, living listed there and understanding what an algorithm. That's now a very typical way of thinking about problems, being able to break a problem down into its smallest components and solve them in a systematic way. Have understanding the power of approximation or recursive thinking, understanding the notion of complexity. So I think that's what we're trying to get up. Words. I'm a computational thinking. The other two are fairly standard quantitative reasoning and scientific reason. >> But that's the one that's a little bit to maybe moving before moving on to the fourth row, if anyone wanted to elaborate or comments about computational thinking for a moment about, I just don't think people are going to know that what, what you're defining computational thinking to be. >> And I'm just not sure every student needs to understand algorithms. >> Some summary or algorithmic thinking. John walked out the door, he sent me a nice document about computational reasoning wheelchair. Now you read out what's better because I know I look at the document and okay. Now there's that there's we can provide you with some more background on, on at least I had also read a little bit about computational reasoning in terms of solidifying the understanding. There's a question about that, please. A victory for Perez. Sociology justice. >> Have a point about this issue. One of the things that we've been trying to do in my department, create courses that are interdisciplinary, in courses that wouldn't have prerequisites so that anyone can take them, indicate addressed these sorts of issues. So for example, I'm creating a mapping course that allows all students, social science, natural science, physical science, to be able to do this sort of analysis without any GIS background whatsoever. >> So that's one opportunity to create courses to allow for this to happen for any major. >> My question is about four or five years ago. >> We also spent a lengthy amount of time that an apartment and filling out paperwork and evaluating each other's courses using general education course level assessments according to the goals as was stated, then how much is this going to impact that? Or we're going to have to redo all of that, etcetera. Etcetera. >> You mean in terms of accreditation for middle stays? >> Just to clarify your question onto to redo all of the course evaluations and assessment that we did according to the general education goals as they were before, we spent a lengthy amount of time doing that. How much will this impact that IE or we're going to have to do it all again. >> Sure. I mean, our assessment and engineering happens every six years. >> Right. And right. To assess based upon a plan that we put forward, an Edward R. Figure held to the fire to that, as well as any changes and requirements that have come up and we've enforced to show at least that we're addressing them if not already implementing those changes. I assume similar process takes place in your department as well. You have to deal with new and not, not to go backwards, right? But to deal with goals and outcomes effectives, evaluate outcomes whether your meetings. So I wasn't telling people, I want to comment about computational thinking who had sent a very nice, talked about that and maybe a 32nd or less primers that came off. And you were actually walking, sorry, which I'll just use my name. He knows where to find stuff. That line. Can you identify yourself? By Dr. Joe introduced space science funding labs. >> The computational science movement has been not only people should be able to use were world where kind of like a standard word processing and spreadsheet in the PowerPoint and so on, visualization. >> But that they to have some kind of sense of what its power is in an interpretive sense. And also some sense of how do you prevent the kind of garbage in, garbage out that we all live with and, and the kind of chart junk and other that kind of stuff. >> So it's, it's basically kind of an informed citizenry that were using these kinds of things in a little bit wiser method, then that's been so much the case. >> That's more functional than functional. Maybe that study that you said, ask me, like University of Wisconsin, National, international, national academies of science, computational thinking. And it drew from, from many disciplines groups that there, that the arts and humanities is concerned with the social sciences and the sciences for that NAS study. Any other comments at the moment on this issue, although it'll on one of the back by Giotto, prosecute journalists. >> There is crowding. >> If my map, I was looking at Fido slightly differently. >> I will. >> First of all, I think the computational aspect of it, I'm all for that because for me you have to know algebra to get through life. Because your problem-solving. >> So you have to understand, OK, how do I reduce this problem? Because you have to have an innate understanding of math to solve problems. >> Any problem nobody going to have for dinner. >> You really using math background. >> But I also thought maybe the word qualitative is suspiciously missing. >> Because I think while it, you know, if you think of terms like less is more because you Scott quantity. But thinking you've got more of something but the quality has gone down. >> I don't know that word was deliberately left down or because I think that has to somehow get into the mix too. >> That a lot of times, like as I got more and more into understanding how to do things, especially with computer programming. >> I want to start programming. >> Programming like I started sending out e-mail. Oh my gosh. >> I can send emails and texts to people. >> They started going, you're overloading me. >> So it's like just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do some. So that's kinda the quality of the thinking stuff. >> So I've lost the slide out of the word, the exact wording of azimuthal, this beautiful artwork, really wrong. >> And I understand the intent. Night, my MLA for I think a lot of people don't think logically and not even know that physics is another thing. >> I think Physics, everyone should have an understanding of that because it will not hurt yourself. >> In Novaya situations. >> Herbie actually visited before we get back to Steve. Any other top? Yes. Well, forget it. Got to you got there speaking twice. So we have to let other people's B first play by the rules virals out. >> Yes, please. >> That plan. >> So I find that this is too dark at this point. I'd have maybe he can answer that. >> Is there anything that the objective side, the description that you had a minute ago there, anything on campus right now that we have, it's sort of an introductory level that even remotely resembles achieving national Great question. >> Do we, do we have an answer? >> Other than all lot? Victory? >> Yes, victory. Do you have an answer? >> I can speech about my class, non-owners introduction sociology, and teach Rocky for that as per semester. And they don't go into a whole lot of detail, but we definitely present charts and other sorts of thing, be present statistics and how to interpret them. >> But it is in that course. >> So imagine that introductory courses across the social sciences hopefully have some dimension of looking at charts, understanding patterns, critical thinking, etc. But beyond that, I know and I think 11 quick response in engineering, I would argue Engineering 101 course, which is the column of course that all new freshmen take does that philosophy computer science department probably covers is some combination of both required courses, as we would view them as general education and engineering. And his community >> Hi, Betty and daily from the math department, a Math 113 does most of this. >> It certainly goes through the data, the visual presentation of data, statistical analysis. >> We have reasoning skills. We do recursive thinking, power approximation, a lot of computation. So I thinks maybe not all of this, but some of most of it is covered in math 113. >> That's agenda course. >> Well, it's used to fulfill the math requirement for graduation for many students, assistants. >> And so all we're going to hear from Fred, yes, third Hofstetter from the School of Education. >> Could we go back one slide? >> Just Jim? >> I'll do my best. Painter. Yeah. >> So as you showed earlier of the word technology has worked its way up to the middle states standards. And I think it out, well, it's clear that we're preparing students to live in a world where technology is increasingly important, especially online, at realms of social media and so forth. >> Maybe that's all assumed here. >> I mean it through, through my way of viewing that world. >> I make a lot of assumptions as I go down through here. >> I love would be technological, what will be on, but I'm not sure that everyone sees it that way. And I think that maybe we need to find a place to put the word online in her somewhere. >> For example, communicating effectively that maybe online should be there who are working collaboratively and independently. >> Maybe something related to the online or social media needs to be there. >> I don't have exact wording right now, but I, but I think the online world has become so important for all of our students and all of us that I think we need the word in there at least for the next iteration of these bowls. >> Are there comments on this topic? I've got a couple of people. Yes. The law, yes, but I'm Eric Ries, Department of Sociology and Criminal Justice. I'll swallow the working group. You know, technology has been in and out of these. I guess the phone I would throw out there is, I think students have had to deal with technology since at least the printing press was invented. And my point is that technology is constant. And so two, to what degree do we want to make these criteria timeless versus sort of rooted in a particular time. >> I mean, I think either way because they're going to change. >> But I mean, you talk about online now and that may be or social media and put that in there. And we may be laughing at that five years from now because it's been completely changed with something else. >> So I think that's sort of where I think it's something we have to grapple with it. >> I think you can get a flavor from the discussion on our passports. I was thinking Purple reward on this document. Anybody else before we go back to people who talk before, so we'll go backwards. >> Yeah, comment over here was that computationally was similar to logically. And I would recommend that you dropped complicate computationally and say Rees and quantitative blade logically in scientific way. >> Quick comment from John on that, because I think there's been a discussion I just want to throw out there. >> They did, we didn't talk about that. But to reason logically, say really silly, to say reasonably logically, Could I do that? >> I type talent yet, I guess notationally is a buzz word, right? Well, it may be the hot thing this week, but it may be gone a month from now. >> And I, but I think logically carries much more about long term connotation. Continuity. There is value, of course, of international academy addresses or it will definitely make that available. Maybe I'll clarify that I see a person in the peanut gallery who wishes to speak way back. >> Results that are done in chemical engineering. >> I have taught courses to a mix of biologists and chemical engineering, system biology course. >> And it is very difficult to communicate some fairly complex mathematical ideas to the biologist. But I found that when I wrote it as a simulation on a computer simulation with a bunch of clickable icons. And what the biologist who then had to do initially, you would just click on the icons and then realize that you could do what you could do with an experiment over several days with the simulation. Then they got motivated by that thing. What does this, what are these clickable icons? What's behind it? And then they started looking at the map and slowly got interested. >> So I think that computer simulation is a great way of motivating people who are not completely in there to get into the mathematics, mathematics behind the biometrics that are being my version than costs that are not always from a logical standpoint, inherent to the computation. >> If it fairly theories that goes from Mathematica models, computer simulations do moths Quicken genre? >> Thank you. >> I guess a question which is that I guess I'm not sure what reason computation means. >> And I'm asking one question I have is, does it mean that you want every student be able to write a very simple computer program or to do something? >> Setting up a website door. >> So could use subtitles. I think that's described here. And I think John would like to address your comment. >> John quick, quick comment, Johnson, No, reasoning computationally does not mean being able to code. >> Absolutely not, right? >> It means being able to use the ideas that often come out of computer science, like understanding the idea of taking any problem and breaking it down into its constituent parts or develop a systematic way of solving it. That's what it means. It doesn't mean anything about even using a computer. >> It's a way of thinking how to, how to inaction. >> And I'd like to follow up that with comment. And another quick question, which is, do we want all of our students to be able to do something with computers where they're creating their own whatever it is, their own website, their own computer program, and whatever computer language. >> Because I think those are very useful job skills. >> I mean, it's just something to think about, right? I also had a question here though, which is, I understand most of the terms that appear near the end, but I'm not sure what is meant by recursive thinking. Can someone explain what that means? >> And if you need to explain it to me made, maybe it needs to be explained to other people too. >> So recursion in a, in a computational senses, if you ever go back and reevaluate and build on things. So I think there's a couple of ways of looking at that biological perspective feedback and then working through logically, re, re-evaluating things and building on that next step. So recursion isn't inherent operation in utero, and it's, I think inherent thing. Or they give explicit realizing the value of that because I don't disagree. But maybe it needs to I explain more clear right upon it cuz I know I'm narrow Gardner from the Lerner College. >> And because I am from learner, I was a little hesitant to mention the word job skill until someone else did. But you know that there are people, and I know that there's been research done that says one of the things parents are hoping for is that college will in some way help their children eventually have a career. And when I look at those things, we have very carefully avoided talking about things that are as mundane as the skills necessary to get out of your parents basement. And I don't know whether this is deliberate, whether gen ed is supposed to be my mind is on all of these great intellectual things or if it is appropriate for us to include. And here consideration of essential skills necessary to figure out whether you should lease or by how did get a job went to an end in a MOOC? And on that level, and that's just a general question. >> Do we want to go there? >> Is that I got was partly associated arts program. >> I actually think the objective speak directly to that very thing. >> When I listened to my wife has to say when she comes back with WL Gore, These are the very skills of the things that she wants to see in the people that she is higher. And that is exactly what PR interviews are all about. And I think if we can get this across and our students can actually do these objectives. >> To meet these objectives, they are well prepared to step. The world of business or whatever. >> And I don't think they actually have to say, oh, yeah, I got a job to do. >> I think that I think it's well stated. >> I actually had a good addressed at that particular point. >> And I just check with God back there were staple, the Arabs made comments. And I will now software engineering, soft skills, in addition to the specific talent the person has working on item x, these are the skills that really make or break the job or comments on item five and computational, they will take more of those. >> John, can I just add an addendum? Because they caveat that people race so much about, it's an ephemeral thing about current kind of Time is that it was seriously considered by the committee that that in addition to kind of the empirical and theoretical traditions that many of us who have come out of. >> He has been a huge part of our current culture and, and policy decisions and so on are made upon it all the time and people have struggled with it. >> Every model you build, you know, as false before even built it. >> And how is it that modelling plays such an important part? >> And so when we're talking about global climate change or whatever, that A's are highly hot topics in terms of society. >> And how do people I interpret trust to be skeptical of models is part of that kind of computational thinking and I think transcends the immediate toolset by which we approach it. >> But intellectually, you know, how is it that we live in an age of huge data that won't fit on your laptop anymore, and you're in a different kind of world and that it might be better to break up your problem into a very different kind of way. And I think intellectually, that's more what they're going after rather than a set of skills that we might know in terms of current kind of computational environments. >> Moving along on the fourth roll, Sarkar of physics and astronomy, also graduate student government. So I was curious about the wording to an aesthetic. >> I'm not to save money, the focus on this, but probably you about it in terms of how I normally think of it in the description I see artistic or I think of creative things like that. So I'm wondering with a scope is, and the use of that word aesthetic and a particular thinking about it. I think the word maybe construed to normatively already because this is an objective, I think it was an invitation may think is as an aesthetic is not to be care about. >> Aesthetic reasons, aesthetic expression, you know, what, where does that fall? And so thinking about the wording of the aesthetic expression >> Scope is just a quick comment, of course, has become communist. The American Chemical Society meeting as a competition for graduate students to dance. You know, imagine a chemist interprets or reaction or GAAC or actually, but the idea that it's something other than that, but the comments will take them about the choice. Did you want to say anything about the meaning or somewhere else on the task force that was most, yes, I know that URL. I'm sorry. >> Limit professor theater. When we first saw the list, there was not an emphasis on the arts, and I know we want it to have it there. And so it's interesting that we have communicate effectively and writing orally and through aesthetic expression. So that aesthetic expression is to take into consideration the arts aspect. Which means, are we saying that they'll, all students should have that opportunity? >> And I hope that's what that means to have some experience in the arts. >> And so I would say is that it really does relate our arts as we intended. >> And that's mobile devices freshmen that go beyond just the creation of lesson I'm John from public policy and administration would number to include things like data visualization, which seems pretty important in public policy and seem to be pretty important. >> It certainly seems to be important in visual analysis. >> I think that the artist state charts I do buy wrap capital, which is now very grateful, so great what we're going to capture, that's great. >> So we'll start with right again, if I could try again. In response to Eric, my colleague Eric Ries, I agree that social media is probably not a good term, but what you might be able to work into number two, because it comes from the middle state standard itself would be the word technological. >> So you might be able to say, communicate effectively, writing orally, technologically, and through aesthetic expression. That might be the place to put it. And you'd be safe because that word is in the middle stage standards commented backward. >> In the junior lab in chemical engineering, we has to have written reports and oral reports. >> But now I have students make videos of the labs and they're just incredibly creative. And I was thinking, maybe you want to add visually at the enrichment in writing. >> Rl >> Kill her. Now I just want to respond to someone and say that let last iteration aesthetic ended up replacing technological. >> And maybe we could find a place for both. >> And also in the in the longer paragraph that accompanies the description, the explanation of object two. It does talk about communication through text, images, a variety of different kinds, kinds of media. >> It's, it's, you know, the word ideation. >> John and I had to actually go look that up to make sure I was properly understanding what exactly that is quite straightforward and it's interesting what we need to capture that. >> Again, my prior comment was already taken care of by someone else IS But I mean, the second time I wanted to do, but I want to know what number two includes. >> What I think is really critical that most students at least, or come out of the University, able to communicate effectively in writing and orally in at least two natural human languages, their LMS, adverse language, and another one, and I, you know, I feel like I didn't succeed in doing that, and I wish I had. And I think that it's something that students ought to get, and they do in most countries except this one, it seems like, wow. >> So there is a, there is a question about foreign language teaching. >> All of that should play in those story or my white soluble salt spot bilingual. But any comments? >> I, yes, yes, I would burst. Please introduce yourself how Jesus in physics and astronomy. >> I mean, I would say that to be honest, it is too late to learn to become bilingual when you're over 18. >> And in practice, people pay, you know, couple of classes. >> Some people find it extremely difficult, so becomes a barrier for them to graduate. >> And I just don't see why, you know, would require such a thing. >> People, these are important general purposes is of course, the universe dollar encourages people to take foreign languages. >> I think maybe it's effectively a requirement for many people in Arts and Sciences and make another colleges. But I don't see the need to say that every person who comes from University of Delaware must pass this particular class. >> I know that I know many people who found such classes extremely difficult and a real challenge for finishing college. And for them it's, you know, you yourself perhaps saying that you didn't learn it anyway. So what is the barrier? >> So I kind of, I don't want to be negative because I like so much of the discussion has been so positive so far. >> But I just have to say that personally, I've encountered a lot of people that are born languages very difficult, but it's a little too late. You know, we should be requiring it. >> And there's an initiative or a university of a second >> The experts are white because he was other questions about this issue before we move to the Merton professor of music education when I was hearing with number two as the aesthetic expression, that perhaps they could be creative and artistic expression. >> And that can be expressed through a wonderful comment. I'm taking it further address the purposes. >> Is that plus oh, absolutely. >> Everything's fair game up here. >> But does anyone want to comment about this issue before we went to the next one? Will come What we are a couple of quick. Yeah. Yeah. >> Joe Harris English and also part of the work that I've been trying to take notes on the conversation. >> And I'm struck that are verbs seem pretty well accepted so far and maybe even the first iceberg bacteria. >> And everybody is good with communicate effectively. >> Read critically where collaboratively critically evaluate and at least reason. >> And it's actually, as we move on and try to specify the particulars that we run into problems. >> And so we need to work through those problems. >> But the good news I think, is, is there seems to be some consensus about the basic intellectual activities that we want students to engage. >> And that's why I think it's on this topic. And then we'll move to the big topic. >> Yes, several European culture cause once upon a time, very sympathetic to aesthetic requirements as opposed to thinking that I am doing some algebra to decide on dinner. >> Thought if we're going to talk about measurable and making man gave for communicates effectively. >> I mean, one of my oldest, most worthy and classically oriented musical friends doesn't think Bach did that. How are we going to get into some sort of mandate? >> It went well in terms of objective. >> And that what you're really talking about is the assessment. >> How do we assess that? We make that Jackie? >> Yeah. >> So the question is, we shouldn't be writing objectives that we cannot assess, right? I think that's a well still so, so I, I will also use a quote that I have for Jefferson I like very much of that is differences of opinion did not necessarily imply differences of purpose. And so I think this discussion is going very well. I see differences in England. What I hear is the purpose of what we're trying to do as faculty is resonate strongly, Which is a good song, right? Yes, again, yes, thanks. So I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this discussion. Now that everyone's kind of disgust number two, I would come back to my original contents behind by a question which was different actually than it is not absolutely. I intended to branch out tied together. >> So for the aesthetic, what I was originally thinking was that >> There is a difference between creative expression, artistic expression, and then other things like visualization, for example, I'm thinking about having pretty charts. Could be something that saying that is aesthetic expression, that we want to make sure everyone makes nice Excel charts, right? >> And that's fine. >> And that you could have it in your course. >> You could put that within a math course and say that's, that's satisfied requirement checkbox, which is different from saying like you do your chemical engineering thesis presentation, including interpretive dance, which is different from saying I have a Creative Writing side. >> These are all very different things and get a different spirit behind, I think the intent behind number two, which is to communicate. >> And I agree with that, but I think the scope of the word aesthetic expression or the words, the phrases especially really gets at different purposes which I think could cross, which is why I wanted to point out the important. >> So I think that talking about technology that can be used towards any of those means, as, sorry, as a means towards the **** ends up. >> But I think that we need to sort of clarify and thinking behind whether or not we want to specify different things like creative, artistic, visualization, et cetera, for whether or not we want to just encapsulate anesthetic. >> And b that in terms of what's on the implementation. And, but also I wanted to clarify again about the aesthetic as normative. So when we talk about measuring objectives, it's very easy to measure objective that is inherently normative because they can say, well this is aesthetic or it's not. >> And that's, whereas if it's creative and say, Well as a creative enough, then there's a degree. So the degree of sort of civilization of our people's rights are being cultivated. People, are we creative or artistic? >> This things are not necessarily measurable nutritional sense, but I think they could be implemented in a way that's accepted general. So I wanted to clarify that that wording was particularly troublesome to me because it's a wide scope of different purposes they interpret as absolutely certainly getting good discussion continued on that topic in the back. Frank didn't Assistant Dean and earth ocean environment into TAC team on that. When we talk about a purpose of having people thrive in involving moral, including the skills to be a lifelong learner, creator, and innovator. That the creativity piece being in there is not spelled out in a way that's clear to to get to that piece. Because I would say if you look at those folks that are, have been tagged as creators and innovators. >> There are pieces missing in what we put forward his objectives. And I think that creative, he's part of that, that's not really encapsulated in, in the aesthetic expression conversation. >> So I would just support, I just was Mickey councilmen. >> Again, I was just curious about, I agree with the objectives that the, the verbs work and they're strong. >> But in the purpose of aware of twice R, R a bit above their week. >> And so in the third m, because if we even could skip aware of and just start with capable of I am. >> Unless they're intellectual strengths, perhaps that they well, there needs to be some other able to Word >> Evaluate their intellectual strength, something of that sort. >> That's a little more comments demonstrate, I agree. >> Aware, having capable of interpreting art, what is missing from that Purposes? Music. >> So when you look at the definition of the purpose behind that met the statement itself. >> But the definition of that music is missing. Where if you look at the definition and elaborate, Mr. description Euler per event so fluctuate or Pollyanna about oh, thank you. And a question that maybe you wanted to build on. Outer discussed absolutely aware of and capable of or what anyone from his house was like to comment on why the choice of, now we're getting into verbs will put zooming idea. If you're capable of your world that they're going well. >> So just looking at this last purpose and something just occurred to me, which was something I was reading this morning somewhere online. But it talked about the difference between the skills that an MBA learns versus the skill of an entrepreneur. And it seems to me that we're sort of privileging creators and innovators here and not managers and sustain or whatever other words there are. And I don't even know how to articulate that further. And just occurs to me that it seems like these are a bunch of buzz words that are very popular. Now, what if we created University of Delaware graduates who are not creators, but are in fact preservers or whatever it is. >> That's a wonderful thing. >> But I don't know how to go with anyway with that problem. Perfectly fine. >> Yeah. Nicole, that African plants like science. >> But I think just a comment on your point briefly, that I guess the world we live in now today is such that to be a manager, to be a steward, to be a preserver of anything. I do think you have to get creative and think outside the box. And you know, I think innovation can be a part of anything anytime. And I think, you know, I guess I'm I'm reading particularly from what I do. I have to be or I lose funding categories, ENM. >> But I think with everything it can fit. >> So maybe there's a way to just rework it a little bit or re-word it such that that definition is such that that's clear that it applies unilaterally? >> I think it applies well, yes. >> Your microphone, Associate Dean, College of Engineering for the purposes of mass, the first three seem to be given students kind of awareness, kind about it and understanding. >> The last one seemed to be a lot harder in tied to skills tied to what they can actually become. >> Which is different than knowing about the importance of something. >> So, you know, the importance of lifelong learning and creation and innovation is different than I had >> The ability the document to build people. >> So it seems it's best the ones I balanced can move, the others flow very nicely. And awareness leaving him homeless, understanding where they can apply that awaited they will looking. >> But the third and the fourth one really talks to me about hard skills and definitive kind of guarantee that they'll handles maybe switch that. >> That's I think it's hard. >> I think that's, I think that's really something that would be nice. >> But I think all students could get an appreciation for how those, those last things as whole is you're driving a lifelong learning. >> Creation and innovation are important someone in our society. Are you arguing that is an essential part of the purposes of general education? Are you, I mean, you have August that a lot of experience, imaginary cough, worry about this with regards to this college, are you arguing that that should not fall? Probes, I didn't understand. >> Uncle suggested that the last probes for Bismuth will actually be aligned better with the first story, I think very, very well, capture the faculty wants you to be aware. >> And I'm saying certain things. >> For example, if we wanted to stay in the major challenges in debates of the day that they can be contributed to. >> It doesn't say to be debated. >> It says they understand the value. >> And the fourth one, moon, talks about them having personal skills, the ability to be lifelong learners, create our enemy, as opposed to understand the importance of like monadic creation and innovation. >> So that, that's a, that's a very important point you put on is how far, what do we expect our students to do as a university? Should they be aware that they need those skills versus like public schools? >> That's essentially what you're putting forward. >> Absolutely. >> And I think, you know what these together, the first three gives some flexibility to really get. The last one things. If you leave here and they look at these himself and saying, I don't think I have the ability to learn is a constraint, but creation and innovation is something different. I read it, innovation creation could be anything but an appreciation that they could drive someone to another state. >> When air embryonic animal on Food Sciences when we were discussing this to, to make our own changes before putting this forward today, we actually recommend that the other way that the first three be strengthened because our students come in capable of becoming civically engaged. >> I think we want to challenge them and set the bar very high to be civically engaged, I could divide the time. And so I would argue the opposite. >> I would argue that we set the bar higher because we want our university to matter at that point. >> Just yeah. Tigers. >> Kathy Pinsker, Director of educational assessment. >> I would agree with air and especially with the first understand is kinda low-level Bloom's Taxonomy. >> We would really like them to be challenged to address the major challenges in debates of the day that causes more of a call to action under the purposes aware of, I think Vicky was saying seems a little low level that they should analyze or take stock. >> And whether intellectual strengths and interests of interests so that they can apply them in new ways at rest as opposed to understand. >> Yes. Follow up on that. I guess I want to make sure because we're down at last 20 minutes, that people who have not had a chance to comment persecuted fellow chance to do that, and then we'll come back. So we'll start by people had their hands up in the back. So let's say I wanted to I guess one of the things that you might want to and I'm sorry, I'm John public house in administration. One of the things that you might want to add, the first bullet point is the idea of civic skills that allow you to punch it in your society, make changes in your society, and participate skills, essential skills for that. Thank you. Guessed it. >> It just wanted to bring up that in the taskbar says I'm minority speaker and that I argue very strongly that the first three should be congruent with the fourth one, that you really want a much more active and less passive at that kind of thing in terms of aware, capable of. >> So I'm delighted to hear this conversation. I'm going to do is highlight stomp. >> Well, that was a perfect chair and I love strong. >> It's gotta get bothered by it. >> So a non-binding straw poll, the first three in terms of strengthening that, I would like to do that for. >> All right. >> With that, I'd like to just try it so you don't have to participate. >> But if you're willing to suggest that whether the first three should be much more, much stronger statements with the faculty as a whole. Be careful what you ask for it. We're going to be held by our students and their parents and middle states and our colleagues to achieving those objectives that come with those purposes. >> But having said that, just okay, let's do a quick straw poll. >> Those it'll do in favor or not in favor of leaving them the same or strengthening them in terms of this more active verbs choice. With that, those who favor a more active verbs and those in favor of leaving it the way. It is. >> Interesting that this is something for the task force two and maybe to consider. And we will get to use the, but apparently half the people in the room are called John, you gotta go. Yes, I do. And I'd like to make a comment about assessing how well our students are meeting these objectives. And it seems to me that the first four are the sorts of skills that are not likely to degrade with the passage of time. In the sense that if somebody has an effective, brighter eight English 110, he probably will remain an effective writer for the rest of his college career. But I have some >> Concerns about accurately assessing goal number fall. >> If the idea is that our students are supposed to eat burgers from our universe with the skills. And I'm reminded of the time long ago when I was teaching introductory physics at freshman at Princeton University to a group of juniors who had taken calculus in their freshman year. And I had forgotten that all time Junior. >> And I've had similar experiences here. >> And I think that it really emphasizes that there are some skills that need to be reinforced year after year after year. >> You want your seniors to emerge with that. >> Yeah, and but something slipped away. >> I mean, for example, if you're an effective at communicating in writing or orally, it's something you are doing constantly being in college, right? >> Whereas math skills, you can only take one math course in your freshman year, right? >> Those your knowledge about may slip away because it's not being reused. >> To assess that saved us from that language has finally, objectives have to be same as little thanks to my reagents like, right, they are agreement has to be something that says O jon Bernstein, The reason I voted yes on strengthening is to say aware their intellectual interests and very ethical values. >> We just want awareness. >> I just taught Milton's Paradise Lost to mention intellectual historians in sage and comes to the full awareness. >> Somebody has entered the very famous via an email. Be thou why good change that guy to trespass. >> Jumped out. >> I agree with, and I do want to make a comic because there was a discussion of this in the committee. >> And I think the one of the issues was aware of your ethical values allows some latitude in debate over what is ethical rather than say, act FM. Well, yeah, but at least what I agree with you, learn something about it. >> Don't just look within our nature that's so yellow color. >> Yale University, jefferson? >> Yes, Maria, and acclaim medical lab sciences. I think to to piggyback on that Morgan's comment, I'm seeing ultimately all of these if if we're saying this is something that we want to be the mark of the student graduating from Udi. >> That it, it where where does that final assessment habit? >> Are we going to be content with saying that a student who gets at least to be in some course that seems to be related to some of these. >> They were a second semester freshman at that sufficiently by the time that they're graduating as a, as a senior level clinical medical laboratory scientist who's, who's gone through all of our clinical courses. >> It is it really falling on the, those who teach our seniors, if worthy, graduate that as the ultimate assessment of this. >> How did how did grades come into play? >> How does the timing come into play? >> I, I and I think that's a critically important part of the entire project and entire apartment style. >> Maybe you want to comment on this too, but, but the, the, the first step in any process, of course, is we have to agree our mission. >> And that's well stated on the university website to very simple, to create an environment of learning, to develop knowledge and foster the free exchange of ideas. That's what it says, paraphrased right in one sentence. >> And if we take that as our mission, than these have to be aligned with the mission. And there we agree on these steps that we have to understand how to properly assess them and demonstrating to the outside. So what is, I think important here is to argue whether the knees are so lofty, but they cannot be assessed in any meaningful way that will lead us. So a fallacy of putting forward something that we cannot assess. But the details of how raise and that are, I think a point, a very critical point or as we've talked about presentation of our evolving process for the next semester. >> So, So your point is very well taken and it is necessary that we envision that these can in fact be assessed. >> But the absolute way in which they're going to be done. It is not, I guess at this point that debate, but the point you raised is a very important, I would say, Oh, and I think it addresses many of the comments from all the johns I want to address. One of those though is that if you look at the ethical implications of the difference between a purpose or objective constant y. >> You're critically ill. Replies. >> I can't hear you hear my way off my coverage. All better job someday somebody or played with it. But if you look carefully in the purposes, and we did the straw poll and okay, but if you look at the idea of the update go values and then you come down to the objective about being able to critically evaluate the ethical implications of what you do. I think that's a much stronger statement in terms of the objectives of the course and the teachings that we have, our students is to, to, to require that they critically evaluate the ethical implications of whether they left a tip at Deer Park for the waitress or they designed a chemical plant that's going to involve Fos gene and killed millions of people, right? If it leads so that, and whatever, in whatever discipline. And so I think, I think there, there is a sense of the need to act on your ethics or the objective. Sounds maybe on the purposes could be a little broader US specific, but I'm not I'm not disagreeing with it. We have only ten minutes left, and I'm a firm believer at five o'clock that we should wets the debate continued because I wanted to indicate there's a mechanism, right. >> The taskforce. >> And before we go to any more comments, before people head out the door, I think is really important. >> Maybe John, you explain briefly the mechanism by which you'll leave here. I'd like you like me or anybody else who probably the shower MRI is not as great idea, which I've raised. There is a mechanism for doing that and getting information to the task force. >> First of all, there are a number of people listed on the faculty said a website, the Faculty Senate, the general ed committee there. >> It's your community, the community, the fact that you kept saying norms, I was drafted okay. >> To help out. But at the point of the matter is this is an important thing, but it's your committee as the faculty's, today's faculty committee. >> And you should know your members aren't. You should engage them in conversation over the next few weeks as we try to do as a group, collectively, worst through this as a faculty. >> So there's, there's people to talk to, you know, hopefully, or in your college, in your apartment maybe, or in your program where you can tap chat. >> What that John has a special place where you can give meaningful information via technologically relevant mediums. >> So there's an email just genet taskforce at math dot del.edu. >> Generate enough aboard? Yeah, sure. >> I'll run it and put it on a faculty baby care and we can place to tell myself, well that goes directly to the core working groups. >> So please feel free to send any follow up emails. Oops. >> Let me also just mention that please talk to your department chairs will be meeting with the chairs caucus on October second. And so anything you want to get through them, please please make sure you do that right after email address. >> And that's an important point to every to your department chair. >> Did not send this out to the faculty with that comment that this is going to be discussed in the very near future within your department as a former department chair? >> It does me oh, and a joy to say, please go to your department chair. >> I write and tell them that they need to do that. >> It's really important for us that, that the, that this get disseminated throughout the entire UI so that people at everybody on my faculty, we're all in this together. >> This is Chennai, right? We're all in this together, we all benefit or excessiveness. >> And so it's really important that each unit look at it carefully and also start thinking about the next steps right time. And it's never too early, as we believe. >> Hopefully refine and hopefully our, our faculty as a whole group of progress and get behind it. And then the implementation of this peak, that's the next big challenge. >> So it never hurts to start thinking about these things in your departments. >> And I could see Michael on thinking in the back about engineering went a lot and what kinds of things will need to be unused space? These Steve, but I'm sorry. No spaces as foolish or John, either myself or anybody. >> I get you to your community, your agenda committee. >> Is there more on the Karen's got us up on the Faculty Senate website. And you can see that all of us where we live, what we for breakfast or email addresses us down. Brouhaha, early in the morning coffee, wherever we want to engage with that. Steve also is the days things is going to raise his hand and asked or make. >> Another important point is another important committee, the undergrad studies Committee, which is also another conduits. These sits on every committee that was related to this and is contributing actually is wisdom and experience to that. >> Steve, you've wanted to say something. Yeah, I'm just wondering whether this recursive model that we talked about or some people talked about is going to be users didn't. So we, we, we agree on the purposes, we agree on the objectives, but then we find there is no way to either implement, assess them effectively. Are we then going to come back and delete number two over x is going to require us to do that. And if you can't meet it, we're going to have to fix that, right? >> Yeah, I can expect gifts, dance. >> That's right. But maybe if we can't measure it or assess it, it wasn't it shouldn't have been there in the first place this way as well, a meter, is there going to be a loop? >> These, one of these recursive loops, you talked them out. >> See, I'm thinking computationally. So Steve, this is going to wipe out because there's not that critical. And as a combat offenders, a computational Danner, what my wife puts on the tape. And that's my logic whenever it knows for dinner. But I just want to draw your attention to the last part of this documents that I think speaks a little bit to your question. >> So in the last part of the document, what we've done is we've taken each objective that we're trying to figure out. >> How do we assess these facts are right there. >> We're working with the ACLU has rubrics for lots of different things. >> So the rubrics let us look at an individual and say, what does it mean if they read critically, really well, poorly, or what's so we're trying to do that. >> And before we get this to the faculty senate for the first iteration, we'd like to have that mapped out. So have a sense that yes, we can actually assess these things. Closing comments and concerns, philosophy. >> Is it possible to notice rather violent? >> But is it possible instead of requiring people to communicate effectively through aesthetic expression and being better than MV. >> Do we see that? >> We say have set aesthetic experience in some wording of that. >> I mean, take a course in something beyond algorithms. >> Perhaps there's good. >> This clearly has been a major discussion topic that the task force, john thinking I'd like to make a comment, which is, I think we all know that we get a broad spectrum of undergraduates at this. You'll see that some of them are excellent, others are not. >> And in particular, I think something like about 20% of the freshmen who enter will never graduate with a degree. >> And I think that this will tends to indicate that when we're trying to assess how effective we are, we should be looking at the students who stick around in their junior and senior year, at least as much as what happens to the freshman. >> And I think this tends to indicate that >> The general education is not something that should be confined to the freshman year. >> It's something that really shouldn't be taking place. >> Also, when the junior and senior years and assessed in the senior year. >> That's, that's very, very valid point. >> And even suspect Victor raising your hand while initiated. Just two things. I also just wanted to reiterate that I think it's vital that assessment has thought about the end of all this. >> We spent so much time before for my comment earlier. But I also think that in traditional liberal arts experience, some of the terminology awareness of is also an awareness of self. And so awareness of their intellectual strikes is an important skill. Being able to recognize your own strengths. And so awareness of self, self-determination, self capacity, and so forth. >> I think that there's a place for that word in there and not so much in what they can go out and do, but with the transformation within themselves. Very well. >> What am I picked some of the longer discussion other purposes, speaks towards the personal about that. >> But your point about interpreting that is two we're down to the two minute warning. Yes, Jim. But economics and I just going forward, but Professor Morgan said Professor Bellamy's example early on, I find too often these general requirements focus too much on breadth at the expense of depth. >> And, you know, in any course that has too many prerequisites, can't be agentic. >> Courts can't satisfy these requirements. And I think that's that's a mistake like calculus to 21, shouldn't be the end, that should be the beginning. >> I went to a small liberal arts college as an undergraduate and we just didn't take one. >> We had to take R1 and two or music One and Two. >> And you couldn't just stop with one or it she needed to go further. >> And I think that's really important. >> And I think, you know, getting students to focus on developing skills in a particular area by taking multiple courses may be better for them than taking a wide variety of Introduction to everything and not developing any real skill and anything that's a really valid point. And I see Michael last filing of the bad because if you're in the College of Engineering as an undergraduate, you need to do a depth requirement in your breath sequence right here. General education, that's something our power does value, of course, you can't do that and everything. So one gets to choose. But that is, I think many colleges have that mistake and it goes beyond, basically have some depth in parts of Africa. But the point is very well taken. Ok, I see the clock on the wall. I need to thank you. I've now just spend 1.5 hours of your valuable time. >> I hope it was workers. >> And there's the opportunities to communicate more ideas. You think of them ought to be moving documented process faster. So please also tells me the Faculty Senate as well to debate. Thank you. Ok.
2014-2015/facsen-20140922.mp3
From Joseph Dombroski May 06, 2020
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