I just take the record button, so. Now, where do I need to look? Does it matter? Do I need to look at the camera? Where do I, or just have a conversation? Just have a conversation. Okay. If you look at the camera, we'll be seeing the eye contact on this side. Okay. But you certainly don't have to. If it's more comfortable for you not to. Okay, whatever is best. Susan, thank you very much for your time. I've been using your book. for the last two years on race and social equity nervous area of government. Very interesting topic. And you came here to Delaware to talk. Yes. And we're now doing the same, I teach the seminar in public administration. This is for that course. And it's we're now doing the online version of the course. So we just wanted to talk to you a little bit and get a little update and a flavor you talk in your book about some really important issues in public administration about implicit race bias and bias in public services and so forth and so on how did you get interested in that topic and decided to write this book well it was interesting several years ago when I was doing some research looking at Wisconsin Works, their welfare reform program there. And I was interviewing an administrator, a state administrator, and their welfare program, the Department of Workforce Development. And we talked about, we were looking at sanctioning of welfare clients. And one of the things that we talked about when I, and I was talking to him about it, he said, you know, this is kind of a nervous area. It can be an uncomfortable area. And that phrase that he used always stuck with me and it resonated with me and I kept coming back to it. I kind of jotted it down but I kept coming back to it. And I thought nervousness really captures the emotion that I think undergirds a lot of this work. That oftentimes it's an area that is a responsibility of public administration, it's a responsibility of government, but it also expresses a level of discomfort. And so when I went on to do the work, I talked to some people on the medical campus here to learn more about nervousness. And that's when I found out that it's associated with anxiety disorders. And so, and how to sort of overcome nervousness, you need to expose yourself more to what's making you nervous. And so I settled on the term because it also seemed to capture, the thing about nervousness is that it can have internal and external markers. Some of those markers internally may be a marker that is unknown to someone who's observing it. So, for example, maybe your heart rate increases. But it has these internal measures as well as it can have an external measure in terms of, you know, maybe your hands start sweating or your voice starts quivering, but it can have internal markers as well. And so I thought it really captured what I was hearing from a number of administrators when they talked about difficulty and having conversations around social equity and particularly engaging conversations related to race. You're a leader in public administration. You're president of the American Society for Public Administration. You've written this book. You appear on panels. Obviously, you think this is a really important part of public administration. Could you go through that a little bit, why this is so important to the field of public administration that we deal with this topic? Well, absolutely. It's very important because all agencies, all public sector agencies, have a record, a historical and a contemporary record relative to equity. So whether we're talking about the EPA or Department of Health and Human Services or we could be talking about Department of Public Utilities at the local level. Each agency, federal, state, and local has a record. And that record has a very specific timeline and very specific activities that have occurred that may have promoted equity or may have failed to promote equity. And so that's one of the reasons why I say it's of government and it's very important to public administrators because it's founded in, a democratic principle of equality, and that's a principle that we can all embrace. So we think about liberty and justice for all. You know, we think about notions of fairness, and that's not controversial at all. But then when we think about the implementation of it, in the provision of public services, the implementation of policies and programs, that's when we really have to make some very difficult calls and difficult decisions. And so, even Even when we've had times in government where we were not equitable at all, so if we think through, you know, there were public policies that had segregated school systems, for example, or segregated swimming pools or theaters or any of that, those were all still actions of public administrators, and those were all still agency records. And so one of the things that it's important for public administrators to always think about when we're thinking about the ease that we associate, with public administration like effectiveness, efficiency, economy, that equity is an important E, and it's one that an agency has to always first know what its record is from a historical standpoint, and then what it is now and where it hopes, what it hopes to achieve relative to improve in its performance in the area of equity. Do you see some particular functions of government that need this attention more than others? So what would be some of your favorite targets for better? Well, you know, I think it undergirds all the work. It's not in a particular area, but there are some areas such as workforce. When we're thinking about workforce, does an agency demonstrate equity in its recruitment and it's hiring and it's promotional and pay of its employees. That's one area. When we're thinking about contracting, that's another area that's really important in terms of equity for women and minority businesses. Do we think about equity in terms of just making our materials accessible on our website, on an agency's website, are the materials only in English, or are they available in English and Spanish and other languages that might be spoken within the community that we serve. Financially, that's another big area to look to see within a particular organization. Does its financial record in budgeting, does that reflect equity in the provision of its services? I always say if you want to know what an organization values, it's important to look at his strategic plan, but it's really important to look at his budget to see how monies are being allocated and spent. So if we look at HR, if we look at finance, if we look at contracting, those are three main areas and then just the overall delivery and provision of services. All right. Very good. This is another interesting question. Since you wrote the book in 2014, has anything changed since you wrote the book that might affect this area of need for? or, you know, dealing with this nervous discussion of public services? Well, I think two things I think have been important. On the international, from an international front, of course, the UN has passed the sustainable development goals in which all countries are really sort of thinking about how do we, you know, accomplish very large and laudable goals, such as ending poverty, making sure that women are treated fairly across the globe. So a lot of these from a global context are important for individual nations. And so I think that makes examining the nervous area of government or a nervous area of government really important. Of course, our recent presidential election here in the United States, I think, exposed some of this nervousness and discomfort, the extent to which race and racial issues were either front and center or also front and center. part of the sub-messages of the campaign were important as well. So it continues to be a very active and a very important area for us to think about. But keep in mind that I talk about race and social equity as a nervous area of government, not the nervous area of government, because it also includes areas such as gender, sexual orientation, class, ability, status, disability. So it includes a lot of areas, not just race and ethnicity. And so this nervous area of government is larger than race, although race is obviously a very important component. Do you see those areas making progress going forward or doing some retrenching? Well, I think it's both, quite frankly. I think there are some areas, particularly at the local level where I've been very impressed. The Seattle Race and Social Justice Initiative is one, King County, Portland, some work in Minneapolis. There are a lot of cities. There is a governing for racial equity conference that primarily focuses on local government that's held each year. And we have local governments that are really doing some innovative things relative to equity. At the same time, you know, we also have legislation that has been passed that has been more restricted. to transgender populations in North Carolina and Mississippi. So, you know, they're coexisting, but I am optimistic that a lot of particularly local governments are taking this work seriously, and we're seeing this at the state level as well. Do you see the federal government doing some backtracking in this area going forward? You know, it's hard to say, of course. I think it will also depend, we'll see variation by agency, which is something that is to be expected. You know, I think we just had the election last week, and so it's going to be interesting to see where we move, how these issues move forward on the federal level. You know, if we only do a content analysis of the language that has been used, it certainly uses a lot of area of concern. Having said that, of course, in fairness to the new administration, to President-elect Trump, they haven't even been elected, they haven't even taken office yet. So it's really hard to say when the record is, in terms of actual governing, is yet to be seen. You're still trying to figure all that out, see where it's going to go. Absolutely. A few more time, yeah. So any other questions? Is there any final advice for our students who may be interested in continuing research? So advice to our students. Ask the whole thing, start over, yeah. Any advice to our students as they set out on their careers as far as dealing with topics and races? Well, I think it's a very robust area and a growing area within public administration. One of the things, I have several students who are on the market now, both at my home university and at other universities who have an interest in social equity. And I was really impressed with the number of job ads that are using the word social equity in terms of a desired area of expertise and qualification for positions, tenure track positions. And I think that really speaks to how far the field has come since the national account. Academy of Public Administration, sort of was one of the first mainstream organizations to embrace the concept of social equity and to promote it. It certainly seems that it's infused in our curriculum. If we look at our conference panels, if we look at journal articles, the number of journal articles that are focusing on the area of social equity, and then again to see in the job announcements. So I think there's a lot of important work to be done here. And I think that students can easily find a way to build very rewarding careers in a research area that is both important and well respected. Great. I think that's most of our questions. Do you have any other comments or ideas you'd like to bring out? No, I think it's just, you know, one of the things that I'm interested in doing and this will be a little ways off because as you mentioned I'm President of the American Society for Public Administration right now, but once those commitments are fulfilled, I plan to look at this issue much more in a global and a comparative context. So I'm excited a new course that I've developed and taught here is a comparative social equity course, and that's been very rewarding for me. So I think looking at these issues domestically and globally is going to be instructed for all of us. And I encourage students, faculty to continue for us to move the field forward in this area and the profession. On the profession, do you see some areas you can work on inside ASPA and moving ASPA as a prime professional organization for public administration as your president? You know, I'm really proud of ASPA and the work that we've done relative to social equity. And certainly it far perceives my time as president of ASPA. So, you know, we have the section on democracy and social justice. We have an ethics section. We have the Conference of Minority Public Administrators. We have the section on women in public administration. So ASPA has been a very inclusive professional association that's dealt with these issues front and center for a large part of this existence. If we look at our flagship journal, Public Administration Review, the very first article on social equity came from a lady, a practitioner who was in the Office of Price Administration. Her name was Francis Harriet Williams, and she wrote that article as early as 1940, that it appeared in public administration review. So I'm really proud of the record of ASPA and our associated publications. We always need to continue to strive and improve our record in this area. But this has been an area if we look historically, whether we look at ASPA or look at some of our journals, this has been an area that ASPA has been a real thought leader in. And so I'm proud to be continuing that tradition. I would totally agree with you. I've been in ASPA since 1964. And the first ASPA conference I went to was all white men in dark suits. And when you go to an ASPA conference nowadays, it's very, very different from that. And I remember when the first woman was elected as President Nesta Gallus. So I totally agree the field of public administration has really become a lot more diverse and interested in equity. And I hope you continue to continue. to do your work and it's very, very important. Thank you very much for this interview. Well, thank you for the opportunity. So I think we'll. Can I just ask for one more thing? Dr. Gooden, if you could just say your name and where you work and what you do, and we might be able to use that for a separate clip to kind of introduce you and this interview. Sure. Susan Gooden, Professor of Public Administration and Policy at Virginia Commonwealth University in the L. Douglas Wilder School of Government and Public Affairs and also President of the American Society for Public Administration. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Thanks so much. Hope to see you again soon. All right. Sounds good. Take care, guys. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thanks.
UAPP690 Susan Gooden Interview
From Daniel Smith January 29, 2025
7 plays
7
0 comments
0
You unliked the media.