Good evening everyone and welcome to global agenda at the University of Delaware. I'm Ralph BEG lighter universities journalist in residence for more than 40 years in the middle of the 20th century the United States and the Soviet Union were locked in a battle for political supremacy called the Cold War. The battle ended without a shot ever having been fired between the two superpowers. When the Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own economic and political failures and under the tremendous pressure of the United States and its allies around the world. But although the Cold War ended without a shot being fired it was not a bloodless war >> Among the casualties were countless secret agents. Secret intelligence officers working for both sides in a variety of espionage and intelligence agencies with initials like KGB Jie Ru and CIA >> Two of those public servants are here with us tonight each having fought and survived the Cold War. And I don't mind admitting personally I'm a little more than more than a little excited about having them here. A few years after the end of the Cold War in 1994 and American CIA intelligence officer who had worked under the stars and stripes. Undercover for three decades on behalf of the United States a 52-year-old agent who lived in the Washington DC area amid neighbors who didn't really know what he did for a living was arrested by the FBI. He was charged with conspiracy to commit espionage on behalf of Russia and the former Soviet Union. His wife was also arrested. Aldrich Ames had spent most of his career doing things. Our two guests tonight have done carrying out clandestine operations around the world. By revealing American secrets to the Soviets in Moscow aims was believed by US officials to have caused the death or imprisonment. A number of Soviets who had been secret sources of the CIA and the FBI aims exposed us intelligence operations that were so valuable to the USSR. That Russia paid him some $2.5 million in cash for being a mole inside the CIA at a time when the Kremlin could barely afford to feed the Russian people aims is in jail now having admitted to compromising some of the most important secrets of US intelligence to the Soviets. One of the men here tonight is responsible for having discovered and exposed aims is treachery. Paul Redmond has been tap since to investigate other cases including the Robert Hansen case at the FBI. Briefly another episode. A US Navy officer. John Walker was discovered to have run aspiring for the Soviet Union from the Pentagon. From inside the Pentagon. In fact walkers entire family seemed to have been involved mostly in passing secret US codes to the Soviets. The other intelligence officer who is here tonight was John walkers KGB controller running Walker from inside the Soviet Embassy in Washington Old egg collagen spent more than three decades on the other side. Working for the KGB he came to the United States in 1958 and just last year he was put on trial in Russia for double dealing the Kremlin accused of giving away Russian secrets in his book published in 1994. These guys are the real thing. That's what we're up to this winter and spring and the University of Delaware is annual global agenda. Speaker series spies lies and sneaky guys. Our series takes placing Wednesday evenings at 730 right here and Clayton Hall. The series is sponsored and supported by the World Affairs Council of Wilmington. Who's President Wendell Fenton is with us tonight in the auditorium and by the University of Delaware Center for International Studies the Department of Political Science and International Relations and the Department of Communication. And I'm pleased to know that Dan rich the Provost of the University of Delaware is also somewhere here in the auditorium tonight and we're delighted to have him with us. Now for a more full some introduction of tonight's speakers. Let me turn things over to a great new colleague in the political science department Professor Matt Hoffman who joined us here at UD Just a couple of years ago in 2001 I think. 2001 He's a specialist in global governance and teaches courses in that subject as well as international relations and political science methodology he also researches environmental politics and in that connection has a joint appointment. In UD is college of marine studies. His PhD comes from George Washington University Professor Matt Hoffman place. Thank you. When you study international relations the Cold War is inevitably at the center of your scholarly work either because you've studied the Cold War and it formed the central part of your research >> Or you've you're surprised by the end of the Cold War and it forms either research that people have done in the last 20 years. Now the Cold War was the dominant feature in world affairs for nearly 40 years as the Soviet Union and the United States strove for dominance the balance between the two antagonist was kept not only by military might the ability to check allies or solely through economic power. Instead information was crucial as well. The competition and the balance between the United States and the Soviet Union was not a static fact of life. But rather a fluid and evolving condition driven by foreign policy decisions. Information was thus then and remains now crucial to maintain a balance of power or to compete with adversaries. It is necessary to understand what your adversary has what it perceives and what its reactions may be to your actions. Of course that information is mostly crucial in the deadly competitions like the Cold War and those that face our nation today. There's also uncertainty and all of those understandings. And this is what makes foreign policy challenging. And ultimately fluid Our speakers tonight played an enormously important roles in trying to reduce that uncertainty for the respective countries and thus played an important role in the balance of power and competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. They have also significantly contribute to changing the ways that the countries use information examining the internal and institutional problems that lead to the inefficient use of intelligence and even the inability for countries to use intelligence. Thus spying did not end with the end of the Cold War. It may have changed but the need for information may be even greater today in the competition the relation between states and now act other actors as well. Therefore I look forward to learning a great deal tonight. First then let me introduce Mr. Paul Redmond. Sir Edmund is an internationally recognized authority on security. Counter espionage and counterintelligence with hands-on experience throughout Western and Eastern Europe Southeast Asia and the former Soviet Union. As Ralph mentioned he is the real deal during his 30 year tenure at the Central Intelligence Agency Mr. Redmond manage the CIA's extensive counter intelligence organization and counseled three succeeding directors of Central Intelligence highly sensitive counterintelligence matters including technical and personnel security concerns. Mr. Redmond received the Distinguished Intelligence Medal in 1994. The federal Order of Merit from the president of Germany in 1995 and the US National Distinguished Service Medal in 1999. Since retirement Mr. Redmond has consulted and counterintelligence and has been retained by the United States House of Representatives select committee on intelligence. He also served as Director of the Central Intelligence Agencies internal investigation of the Robert Hanson Spy Case. Please join me in welcoming Mr. Paul Redmond >> Thank you very much since counterintelligence is nothing if not reality accuracy of information and the truth I got to correct the record about one thing and the Ames case I did not identify aims the credit for that goes to two CIA ladies named Sandy Grimes and Jean vertebrae into Bureau Guys Jim Holt and Jim Melbourne I get the credit I suppose or perhaps driving the enterprise. And then since I got a big mouth talking about it these years many years later. What I thought I'd do tonight. In the brief time we are going to get to talk before we do questions is emphasize first of all a counter intelligence is an effort in the intelligence business to bring sanity and reality to a world that's very murky. And in particularly in some administrations and times in this country full of spin intelligence can't serve the country unless the truth is at least sought on the reality recognized primary particularly in the area of counter espionage. So I thought I'd give you a lesson in reality about what happened during the Cold War. I've been doing for the last two years practically the Canson damage assessment for the entire government 20 people from all over Washington working with us for **** it would assessing the damage that he did. And one of the things you do is you try to put that spy in the context of all the other spies which is where several days are talking about but what occurred to us is when you look at what he did and what many of the other big times buys Did. You gotta ask the question was there anything the Soviets and the Russians didn't steal during the Cold War. The first thing you notice when you add it all up is every single US government agency engaged in national security was penetrated by the Warsaw Pact. Most of them several times over the only one that I don't that I don't know was penetrated was the Coast Guard. The Congress was penetrated congressman **** Stein from Brooklyn is well known. There were several other congressional situations let's say were and they had ambivalent relationships with Eastern European governments. When you look at what would have happened had there had been a war. It's absolutely terrifying because it's a bunch of spies working for the Hungarians who in turn were working for the Soviets. It's known as the Conrad case. In the eighth infantry division in V core in West Germany had we gone to war on the ground in Germany. We probably would've lost because the Soviets via the Hungarians had the lot. I had the great cynical pleasure at 1 of indirectly I wrote helped write the message to the Commanding General. I can't remember thats of the eighth infantry. Division of V chord doesn't make any difference to inform him that Maskawa get was getting. According with Spy we had Moscow was getting the amendments to his war plan before he was. That's funny. Now I think it's funny. But imagine what would have happened had gone to war. Ralph mentioned the Walker case which and they were reading all the Navy's traffic which this this gentleman here ran that case you'll talk about it. I guess had we gone to war. Most of our naval nuclear deterrent probably would've been neutralized to put it mildly defense industries. Ibm TRW Texas Instruments McDonald Douglas Argonne National Lab et cetera. I got a whole long list here all the rocket systems. When you look at the shuffle the Soviet shuttle that I guess flew once or they tried to I can't remember it's ours to that. I gave this part of this spiel to a group a guy from nasa came up to me after retired nasa guy said yeah you're right Redmond. They gotta look a model of the Soviet shuttle. The holes for the bolts were in precisely the same position down to the millimeter is the American one. You look at overhead satellite imagery of the aircraft carrier that never really got going with the Soviets who was being built near Leningrad right and you put the that overhead and superimpose our most modern Then this is early in the eighties aircraft carrier to same buddy design. I could go on for a long time. I noticed that some of this audience is is perhaps more mature than others that I've spoken to. So I think I'll go back even a little further In history because you would remember the names perhaps during the Roosevelt administration my friends at NSA who are involved in the banana project which was the breaking of the KGB NKVD codes which led to a lot of the big spy cases like the Rosenbergs. When you look at the extent of the penetration of the Roosevelt administration. It's terrifying. Hone Henry Morgan thaw came to work in the morning as Secretary of the Treasury and I think it was Secretary of the Treasury during most of Roosevelt's tenure there was no one in his immediate entourage who wasn't working for the Soviets. Perhaps more terrifying was that had Henry Wallace been the vice president instead of Truman. And when Roosevelt died had Henry wall has been the vice president and had Wallace become president. He would have picked probably a guy named Lawrence Duggan is Secretary of State. Lawrence Duggan was a completely responsive completely controlled KGB agent. That's all in the context of a close run thing. So I suppose you're probably some of you probably you're younger people are probably sitting there saying well so that's a long time ago and we won the Cold War. So what well the so what or several to the answers to that is first of all we didn't go to war and God help us headway by just mentioned a few of those cases the to the Conrad and Walker and it'll turn out than Hansen is right up there. We would have we might have lost the war because of those buys secondly after the Cold War was over people and sort of said well it's just the Comi spine. And we had to spy because they were comments. And therefore since the Cold War was over and the comments are gone we don't need intelligence services and probably nobody's going to spy on us. Well That's nonsense. The fact of the matter is that when you look at the overall espionage against us in recent years it sort of goes like this. This is my informal off the top of my head count since about 1975 there have been 96 significance by cases against us uncovered and I and emphasize uncover God knows what else is out there. A joint CIA FBI paper which is classified. So I'll fudge the numbers estimates that over 80 entities and I listen to the word entity I'm not talking about countries alone spy on us to have tried to spy on its or successfully spied on us. And they include the usual ones that you'd expect Russia China Iraq. They also include Germany France Greece most striking or more striking the Third World the African National Congress. Before they took over South Africa had a great penetration of the State Department Ghana. Recruited a CIA secretary Charles Taylor a wall mod At that point in Liberia ran another State Department penetration Ecuador of all places ran a spy against the US Army. The Philippines ran to recruited to CIA people Indonesia ran an operation against the agency Saudi Arabia had a penetration of the Navy. Jordan had a rather good penetration in the United States Army and of all places El Salvador also ran an army guy for example. The drug cartels that's why I use the word entity have succeeded in penetrating. Dia collect DEA excuse me Drug Enforcement Administration operations I'm toll. Then there are 33 perhaps two points when you drive out of here and your SUVs or sinces they I suppose an academic community or Volvos. Please take two points with you. If you get nothing else out of my schtick tonight. Three countries that would not exist my opinion without the United States Taiwan Israel and South Korea spy on us in a totally uninhibited way. They wouldn't exist and they spy like heck honest. And finally as a point to take with you when I was still working I read an intelligence report can't say from where or how cuz it'll give the NSA a case of the major vapors. But suffice it to say that a country it isn't even Third World Fourth World send a message to its embassy in Washington and said start trying to recruit CIA people if you're in touch with them because CIA is in such terrible shape and such terrible morale they must be vulnerable that I found I didn't know they had even really had a government much less than intelligence function. And I asked a young lady who work for me you know tell me a little bit about the country. Country had at that stage. It's a few years ago a per capita GNP Gross National Product of 250 bucks. And I think eyes is about 27 thousand isn't. So read men's law. When you drive off into the suburbs tonight it's an actuarial certainty that not just Russians. It's an actuarial certainty that there are spies and our government. And there always will be. Now why don't we get this point after all these years I don't think we're we're not all that dumb but we never our government and in you nice Americans never seem to get the point that people are going to spying on us. And I think there are a number of reasons for that. The first one it's sort of cultural. We don't like spine. So we don't really want to think about it. I got to favorite stories on that. William bullet was FDR's ambassador to Moscow in 1936. He sent a telegram to the to the State Department which you can find on the web which said we should never send another spy to the Soviet Union. There is no weapon at once. So disarming and effective in a relationship with the Communists the sheer honesty. That's sort of just plain naive day 1993 how many years later the Bureau has just done a brilliant job wrapping up with our help a spy in the State Department named Stephen Wallace who was working for our nato ally grease and a very senior member of the Justice Department was being brief that there would be a major prosecution. And that very senior member of the Justice Department. I can't name it because I'm on TV on the record. That person said why is this going on and slows case the Cold War is over had nothing to do with the Cold War was a nato ally running a spy in the State Department or if it's something like 17 years. So we don't like the nasty business of espionage mac bundy. Biography of Henry Stimson that famous quote gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail. We don't like to do it. This gentleman here who a leg as a beneficiary. He came here under the Fulbright Program. Despite the United States by statute a journalist who was also a journalist at 1 by statute the United States is not allowed to use to work or have anything to do. The CIA is not allowed to have anything to do with the full by program much less these lovely journalists. That says at all as far as the Cultural Approach the Soviets took full advantage of it. We were forbidden for better or worse from doing it. Secondly we don't like SBI is we really don't like secrets either other dozens of wonderful quotes. A techno bureaucrat named Schlesinger was head of the CIA head of the CIA for awhile. And he forbade the use of the word clandestine service. In the CIA didn't like the word clandestine and the best one of all which is rather topical is the quote from the former senator senior senator from New York who said in his book secrecy is for losers. I would remind you citizens of New York and I suppose anybody else that the inability of the Secret Intelligence Organization of the United States the CIA to penetrate Al-Qaida allowed a secret organization populated by people operating in secret to run a secret operation in this country and kill 3 thousand some odd people. Ironically what 40% of them are probably former constituents of the senator from New York. But he'd personifies. What's one of the things that makes it difficult to cope with this by business secrets are not nice. That brings us to the present. The point is it's still going on. People are still spying on us. We did not get badly hurt during the Cold War because we never were really in a shooting war with some minor exceptions We are now in a shooting law what the terrorists we apparently are going to be in a shooting war in Iraq and God knows what's going to happen in southeast or in northern Asia would not career. And my message to you is unless we take this whole business you as voters and whoever in the academic aridity pay more attention to this and exert some influence for this country to take pay more attention to the counterintelligence and security of our government. A lot of people are going to die. Thank you >> Thank you Mr. Redmond. Now we're going to turn to someone who was one of those people that was spying on us for mellow those many years. General collusion attended Leningrad State University and was recruited for by the KGB for foreign intelligence work. Beginning in 1958 he undertook espionage and influence operations in the United States. He rose quickly and became the youngest general in the history of the KGB eventually becoming head of worldwide foreign counter intelligence. However in the 990s general collusion became a critic of the KGB. As he saw that the KGB is internal functions had little to do with the security of the state. Everything to do with meaning maintaining corrupt Communist Party officials in power. Collusion retired from the KGB and 990s and became a public critic of the communist system after being stripped of his position because of his outspoken criticism general collude successfully ran for the Supreme Soviet the Soviet parliament and continued his critique of the KGB currently general collude and teaches at the Center for counterintelligence and security studies and represents the democracy Foundation in the United States. Please join me in welcoming General collusion >> Thank you for the warm reception. I will pick up where Paul rather than left off. Praising the Soviet intelligence it's performance would be inevitable but to expect from me After all right. Well but some things which are not widely known I will devote tonight. The basic guidelines which are defined our behavior and our mode of operations the basic principles the fundamental principles of the soviet intelligence operations. And to understand what I have in mind I'll quote a great Chinese military strategists Xunzi. He said and this is a great message to contemporary America to obtain victory in a 100 battles is not the pinnacle of excellence to achieve victory to subjugate the enemy without a battle. That's the pinnacle of excellence. We were taught all this in my younger years and later on in my practical affairs how defeat the enemy without resulting a wall we would conduct a clandestine war a war of subversion a war of assassination if necessary. While in the United States this is a moral say well correct A few years ago I went to Texas to speak at the Bush Library Conference and I expressed my views that instead of bombing Yugoslavia and that happened at the time the United States and its allies should have removed President Milosevic from power using whatever means at their disposal. After all the United States did have experience in the RAM in Chile in Guatemala why not use it in Yugoslavia I was told that the United States government is no longer. The CIA is forbidden from practicing clandestine and physical ouster of well dictators and guys like Saddam or me lawsuits. Well that's one lesson. The message is clear and the soviet intelligence was not a collection agency. It was essentially a subversive organization spearheaded against the United States has number one enemy. Now its priority number one. In the old days used to be enemy number one. So that well and for that purpose we would employ all trickery all means available at our disposals. And we never had problems with financing by the way whenever had problems of moral support or government support they stood behind solidly behind us. And we knew that we are. We have a solid solid Rij. Well let me now quote another major guiding line or principle on which the soviet intelligence operated. And this principle comes from the great leader of Russia Vladimir Lenin the founder of the Soviet state. He said at 1 after the Soviet Revolution was already in progress. He said we must be ready to employ trickery deceit law-breaking withholding and concealing truth. There are no morals in politics. There is only expediency everything that serves the purpose of the revolution is moral period. That's how we operated. I mean in the world around surrounded us we did great success not so much because we were guided by the principles I described but also because we had profound faith in our system and the eventual triumph of communist worldwide. Fortunately we will not alone and no illusions millions of people around the world particularly intellectuals in Europe and in Asia. In the United States they was supportive of our efforts. They wanted to rate a society paradise on Earth in our lifetime and look. In the forties we were allies with the United States fighting our common enemy. The peak of soviet intelligence performance was at that time when we were partners friends allies. While this is not to say that we are partners today and things may happen of the nature. And I would not suggest that the Cold War was a better option than partnership but we have to be aware that in the forties this Soviet intelligence ran over 250 assets in the United States have friendly nation. Not one single agent was run by the Office of Strategic Services later successor the CIA until 1953 The US intelligence community did not have a single spike in the former USSR. So 250 well to 0 in favor of the USSR and who were those 250 and none of them were mercenaries. Only one man was actually mercenary a prominent individual from the United States Congress a member of the House of Representatives. His name was some pics done right to extend or ****'s time. He offered his services for 3500 bucks and that was a bargain actually in the thirties. And we agree to. And he was he had a codenamed crook whenever whenever whenever attach a humiliating insulting codename saw what people with general respect even mercenaries but in this case against the background of this tremendous say her whip a will of Americans liberals leftists fellow travelers as communist socialist to contribute and to help the USSR. This was an exceptional case. I mean truly greedy good for nothing krill Cook. Well that was that was the climate psychological and intellectual at the time. Well now now what happened afterwards the Soviet system became discredited. Well eventually it would just go down the hill altogether and fell it fall apart. But it was Khrushchev who delivered a mortal blow to the Soviet system in his denunciation of Stalin. And immediately our network started to dwindle I mean we would lose hundreds and hundreds of people. I remember I have stone a Soviet agent a great liberal. I mean the Stones weekly some of the you're my generation but remember great liberal in Washington. He was a Soviet agent since 1936 or 37 by codenamed Blinn. Well he was revolted by the disclosures of the Soviet brutality under Stalin. He didn't know it. I didn't know either in my time because we were a closed society when he was also appalled by the Russian intervention in Hungary. So Cui quit no more thousands around the world would quit. We will study losing people. What did we too after the Soviet system became less appealing to the intellectuals and thinking people as we say. Well we started looking for substitutes without pacifists the great guys who work who want to world peace wherever in Vietnam in in Iraq or in Africa in Cuba pacifists I recruited myself a couple of pacifists and I told them. You can not have universal peace unless you destroy the United States as a breeding ground for counter-revolution and military. I mean because the trigger-happy military the top brass the weapons manufacturers they are behind the United States foreign poses. And if you do not change the internal situation in the country you will fail and you know what they would agree and work with me later. Well well when the pacifist swells faded away the war in Vietnam was or what to do. What's next we found another contingent environmentalists. So who care about you know polar bears in Alaska you know well let's stop like that. Well we all love nature. We all of us. We do not want our countries to be polluted And of course under capitalism how could it be otherwise for the sake of profits you would pollute and destroy anything right not the Soviet system. What was different well little did we know I didn't know and had I known it would have not changed anything that the Soviet Union as the most polluted countries in the world at that time now to write. Okay so well we thrived on these on the people who believed in some cause. And we always emphasize the human penetration unlike the CIA which did not have assets inside the USSR we truly concentrated our efforts on on on on breeding new and new I mean crops of generations of spies at 1 and the pole was right. We had so many in the United States and some agencies at the Office of Strategic Services with 27 agents in the treasury 26 recall. And there were instructions from Moscow stop recruiting people into treasure. They bump into each other in the corridor. There were two. There were two other countries which I remember now which had similar problems. One was France thoroughly infiltrated every agency of the French government every institution the media the government to ministers were Soviet agents and the French government. While the third countries probably India or recall that truly an amusing episode the Foreign Minister of India who would later become the prime minister offered his services to the Soviet entails for 50 thousand bucks only were reported that to on top of the KGB chairman and said Do we need you don't have enough information from the foreignness it. Oh yeah we have everything. Okay to tell him We do not spine. India. India is a friend and said well thank you. Thank you for it. So that's the way we operate it. Well as the Soviet system started to degenerate on the breast if this walking corpse as we used to call him in my time. Well What to Do people would not buy anymore. I mean environmentalists of pacifists they were felt that the Soviet system has lost its appeal mess. And this came around mercenaries. People like John Walker the guy who came into the Soviet Embassy and the end of 1967 said I have the kill this to American cryptographic communications of all the United States Navy. He was a great guy. He provide us with information which of strategic value rick aims or Robert Hanson from the CIA and the FBI they regret spies but the nature of the information related to well internal security of the United States to some assets are run by these organizations inside the USSR John Walker Warrant Officer of the United States Navy had as strategic information because it will allow the USSR in case a war would break out to win that war. And I'll quote Admiral stood amount of the United States Naval Intelligence The former chief he testified at the trial of John Walker in he said Had the military conflict erupted between the two superpowers at that time. The compromise cryptographic material supplied by John Walker would have had whoa winning implications for the Soviet side. That's the that's the estimate. So these spies would come and go and we would befriend and pay money is by the way the current Russian intelligence. After many setbacks connected unrelated to the arrest of four Nicholson pits aims. And other guys they say well this is not a defeats after all. We pay more we pay pets that we pick up the cream of America's intelligence community and we pay up to 3 million bucks they pay at best 1 million. So we are now in competition. Russia is an abject poverty today. I mean it's truly after the collapse of the guests and yet we never had problems with financing our intos operations. You would ask a question. Well about the active measures that's one thing which I have. Let me just briefly say the scope of Soviet operations in Subversion was truly amazing. You have to know the facts. They had too many to recite them now. But let me tell you that the main thrust of our active measure programs was to mislead the hostile nations the United States in the first place to descend form to weaken to injure and eventually destroy. That was the issue we. And we would use all sorts of trickery and deception and manipulation from from setting fires on well on the synagogues or sort of painting swastikas sending thousands of letters to Jewish communities to prove that the United States is an anti-Semitic country. We would send the same hate letters to the African ambassadors at the United Nations and in Washington saying that America well Ku Klux Klan type in the letters. You get out of the United States. That was to spoil America's relations with the newly emerging African states. Well we would accuse the United States CIO for being behind the murders assassination of dark homeless code the Secretary-General of the United Nations of patrice no member of the Republic of Congo of Aldo Moro the Prime Minister of India of John F Kennedy President of the United States. That was the Soviet system who stood behind the President I mean President John Kennedy's assassination of course the conservative circles of the United States and the CIA friends they committed that crime and it's this idea stuck. So firmly in the minds of millions of Americans and other people that they believe indeed in the theory of conspiracy but we stood behind the concept the idea that it was the evil forces in this country. Jewish merchants trigger happened military you know all that crowds Motley crowd of people behind the President's who would remove those who did not serve the purpose. Well I'll give you just one Few figures from the still classified reports of the KGB for 1981 about the active measures you'll see this magnitude of those operations you will be amazed. In 1981 the KGB reported to Politburo THE chairman mr. abrasive bed this organization my organization funded or sponsored 70 books and brochures in foreign languages and Russian. 70 in one year. 66 feature and documentary films 66 in one year funded supported or devised by the KGB 1500 radio and television programs Paul sponsored and funded by the cam. You mentioned CNN Fox whatever NBC all sponsored by the CNN or British World Service or German Deutsch I've ever on others sponsored refunded by the CIA we did it. That was our job or a number of say your articles published in various newspapers and magazines 4865. Now 3 thousand conferences and exhibitions were held sponsored and funded by the KT worldwide inside Russia glorifying the Soviet system attacking the United States the evil degrading depraved rotten United States as the leader of the western world. And finally 170 thousand lectures one I'm just delivering now or it was part of that in the old days. So that shows you what kind of organization we and you dealt with and I was part of that program. Now with the USSR no more Russia emerging as a well kind of a free nation market oriented with Mr. Putin. My former subordinate in charge or the country. Well there was a question just a few weeks before the 911 tragic events. At the number two man of the Russian intelligence was interviewed by one of the Russian major newspapers who was asked the question a very pertinent question. How come how do you operate these days with your ideology non-existent discredited with money in short supply. I mean what do you do and he said Oh no problem. We are operating as usual. We recruit people we look for those who hate America anti-Americanism replaced ideology. Anti-american has people who hate America wherever they are in in Latin American Africa Asia Europe in the United States look at Timothy McVeigh. The guy who bombed the federal government building Oklahoma City had we found him earlier because of his hatred for the US government will find him a good nice position and intelligence. A long lasting kind of engagement Well unfortunately he did the fullest saying by bombing that or say this fellow named John Walker Lind the guy who joined the Taliban moment. While he would be an excellent source for the Russian intelligence and Google. In fact for any other intos this because he worked against his own country. So anti-Americanism replaced old communist ideology. Well that fellow the top PR chief intelligence guy he mentioned money said don't worry. We are not in short supply if necessary we'll pay enough money Goodman. Third he mentioned another ersatz I mean surrogate TO substitute four ideology. Patriotism we are looking for people worldwide for my emigres those who left the USSR Russians Ukrainians Armenians Baltic States whoever who feel nostalgic about the former great crosser who got in trouble in the United States will feel sort of unsettled unhappy and lots of people actually buy live not too far from Baltimore. It's it has about 60 thousand. Former Soviets today. Some say 80 thousand well doesn't matter. I met quite a few who I know would be absolutely eligible for intelligence operations. One young guy who goes to a a local loyola college a Catholic institution. Coby want answered Mr. Gilligan. He came to the United States when he was three or four years old with his parents and he was about to graduate last year he called me and said Mr. Gilligan with the United States. In a national economy going down the hill I'm afraid that when I graduate I may be unemployed could I get a Russian citizenship I will go to Russia weren't there. When things improve in America come back. I said sorry fellow I have no friends and the Russian constantly. But here is a perfect candidate. That's how things operate. This is a message essentially partnership friendship. That's all fine but national interests remain intelligence will never cease its activities. The Russian intelligence is no longer involved in subversion makes no sense who will give us financial loans after all. If we are the mind this country economically right but there are other things. We want to be a competitive power. I want to compete in the world markets. That's why we have to still technology industrial economic secrets military sickness. That's what the Russian tells is heavily involved in and whatever partnership we may have today. Don't be deluded. Russians are good spies. They have lost some of the better personnel because they were disillusioned. I mean they are retired. The younger ones ones are no longer guided by lofty great ideals but still they have good schooling. They have resolved. They have determination to steal to spy and the United States remains priority. Number one not enemy number one. Thank you >> Try something a little different and I don't know whether this will work but we'll give it a shot. We haven't had two speakers at the same time and you've heard them speak individually but you haven't heard them have added a bit. And so I'm going to I'm going to try to provoke them on some topics that I think will be of interest to all of you and then we'll have an opportunity as always for questions from you. We don't know how this will work but let's see. Let's see what happens here. First of all did you guys know each other during the Cold War >> No I the first time I have across his name. I was working at the agency and I can't remember the details in the seventies late seventies and his name came up as having been very successful operative or whatever you wanna call them and in New York running spy cases and hurting our national security and he noticed he was a Fulbright Scholar. And not only that he'd been a journalist and I was as a young officer I was infuriated by that because as I mentioned earlier the agency was forbidden to in any way associated with those nice virgin Fulbright Americans plus we couldn't touch journalists. And I said this is the other playing fields not eat it all even. But the least we can do is do a study of you know how many Fulbright people come here from the KGB and I tried to gather the information and wasn't allowed to because we wouldn't want to upset the status bar >> Did you know did you know am I like well I bumped into Paul's name in the huge directory of the CIA which we compiled in Moscow 11 thousand guys. Paul Redmond was among them not much really but the name was familiar >> Now both of you have talked a lot about espionage in the Cold War period and you've touched on espionage today but you didn't quite answer this question. I'd be curious what you think of it. We're in an information age. Everybody in this audience knows that it's so easy today to get all kinds of information by searching on the internet there's so many open source publications so many more television channels for example radio stations et cetera et cetera. I'd like to hear from both of you. Is it easier to be a spy today than it was back in the day or is it tougher can you or can you compile enough information without having to be a spy without having to use subversive methods >> I gather you had David carry here recently he probably would've said don't bother me. So I'm the director of he's an analyst. And he probably thinks you can quote mine enough information. I think the case is very easy to make the Jew needs buys the fact that there's a lot of in my view superficial commentary on September 11th. That dots weren't connected. Cia didn't talked FBI. Fbi didn't talk CIA et cetera et cetera. And that's the big problem that certainly was a problem. But the stark sad fact was there wasn't anybody intelligence. And that's a function of the fact the CIA failed to penetrate that organization and no bureau didn't do any better >> Any human intelligence or trauma humans. Ok. Oh I guess it easier or harder today. Well well no check. Will we always use open sources but you can never get advance information from the open sources about the attack on the World Trade Center you have to have someone inside them all. Open sources will never reveal that. So we do care we read carefully we analyze but this is just to give you some guidelines but nothing else we always relied on human penetration and people who operate it inside. This also I think a bit of a >> Out there this crowd Al-Qaida or whatever are all religious fanatics and therefore in their small family organizations and someone's been therefore there fanatics and therefore you cannot penetrate them as a religion that is true but it's truly and extend its very difficult. All you have to do is look to the twenties and thirties to the Soviet Union when Bolshevism still was a religion. And you look at the number of very important defect is like Kravitz gay and Alexander roll-off who came here from the intelligence services that were spit out by this religion. So any organization is you can penetrated if you work hard at it even if they are not fanatics >> Well Tom Walker Lind penetrated the Taliban right. Anyone from the United States. A Muslim or a Christian could penetrate Al-Qa'ida had he behaved well. In the past 510 years it takes awhile to get this penetration. But it's an important mission and the CIA has obviously never been interested in cultivating the young. I mean people with no access well who cares they have nothing to offer. The Soviets and the Chinese intelligence had been always cultivating the young people. Remember Cambridge five the great British students who graduated from Cambridge nothing behind them. We patiently nurtured guided them and finally caught the positions which we wanted them. I will I talked to some CIA people about the problem of penetration and they told me Well there as well as done millions of Muslims in this country why not pick up a couple and they said well we trust as well as taught to believe issue okay turn a Catholic into Muslim for five years >> I'd add to this business of our short term approach oligos absolutely right. But it's just not the central and the director of operations of the clandestine service. It's America. We are a country of making the next quarter's numbers. We are a country of instant coffee fast food instant gratification fast-food instant replay and culturally we don't ever think in the long-term. And the CIA has just as much a reflection of the culture as any other place. And that's one of the reasons. Speaking of culture I you mentioned earlier that you want spoke up at Harvard and you got a question from a A student tell that story again. Oh well I've over the years has been asked by people. Why would you ever want to work at that place and wants to want the first brief story is that either we talked ambassadors Wise before they go overseas or did I did when I was working alone. Brassy over big jewel Blonde from Florida some published his wife and why would you want to really espionage business and I said madam because I have larson It's instincts. And then I went on in front of a couple of judges in another context the FISA court which you've heard about. And when they came to CIA to be brief. So what we did and judge joan greens was the head of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act caught. But you've been hearing a lot about. They foolishly try me out to talk to because he has one of this bys and I said Judge Green. Before we go any further you gotta know what you're dealing with and I saw when I was in college Allen Dulles came to the Harvard Law School. I wasn't in law school as an undergraduate. And he gave a speech I have no recollection what he said in his speech but at the end of it some young lady and sort of the third row right in front of me put her hand up and I don't know if she's a cliff fee or from the law school enlisted Dallas I think from what you said a lot of the things the CIA guys they're illegal. And he looked down at her and he said young lady most of the things the CIA does or untainted by the gallon. And that's why I work there >> You gotta forgive me I've heard somebody stories before but it's worth it. Okay. Oh leg when you were first of all I can't get over I just sort of personally insulted by the fact that you came to the United States as a journalist got your degree at the same place. I did not agree. I've got. I made gentleman and he said General. You had another encounter with a journalist in Washington. Some of our audience may have read his columns which were syndicated nationally at the time. Jack anderson. Yeah tell us about this nasty character humanly punctured. My cover >> At 1 when I was at the peak of my success in Washington and I was acting chief of station running all the spinoffs operations in the United States from our Washington base I was about to be confirm as a chief of station and all of a sudden this guy check. Jack anderson comes with syndicated column saying that this fellow who poses as a press officer of the Soviet Embassy instead of helping his wife in the kitchen is seducing some young ladies and tries to put them into the State Department while it was correct but I did not seduced the ladies I had an American who would seduce them and Try to find a job for them in the State Department. And he said in his column that how come the State Department tolerates this fellow why he's not declared person graduate. They had no evidence but the FBI was so angry at me obviously they did not know how to curtail my activities. So I had as a result of that article I had to lie low from an instructions from Moscow keep a low profile. I was not confirmed as the chief of station instead I was a few months later transferred to Moscow but I jumped over to grades in promotion which which thanks to Jack Anderson. I believe >> And as far as the women were concerned his agent gave what we call olig what we call the trait plausible denial. Yeah Paul I think there's a great tendency to assume from some of the anecdotes that you've been telling which are very funny and so on that that if maybe it wasn't always a serious business Hassan but obviously it was a very serious business. Did the United States engage in the kinds of activities that olig has talked about tonight the kind of subversive activities designed to undermine the Soviet economy Soviet political strength elsewhere and so on. Radio for Europe's though with the agency as the Liberty Radio Liberty which apparently was rather oh yeah shrunk rather successful. The agency did some sort of publishing stuff I think in western Europe but I don't think I'd have an effect if only because the KGB had penetrated the organization since the thirties and most of them were French and you can't trust them anymore. Now I wanna get I wanna get to some questions from our audience One last. One for you. Like if I may and this is sort of a series one I'd like to ask you to reflect a little bit here you are you're in the United States. One of our students actually asked this question this evening here you are in the United States. You're living a nice life. You're teaching you're no longer associated. Presumably no longer. I withdraw that comment. I haven't a clue. Okay well what's the question question is this as you look back on your life and you look back on the things you did to the United States in favor of the Soviet Union and you see how it turned out. The Cold War was lost by the Soviet Union Soviet Union disappeared. How do you feel about that how do you feel any regret about the way you spent your life do you have any regrets about the your politics do you have any regrets about the people that were either killed or injured or politically damaged during the time that you were doing what you did and how do you feel about just sort of >> You find life in the United States now. May use Frank Sinatra's regrets. I have a few and then again too few to mention. But the matter is that I served my country well I was a devoted dedicated public servant. I had faith in my system. The system betrayed us essential. That's the problem the Soviet system collapsed not because of its poor intelligence the system collapse under the burden of its economic inefficiency in humanity and the inability of the Soviet leadership to adjust The realities of modern times we did our best we could not say the corrupt decaying system. And in that sense I was powerless like thousands of by colleagues. But I did what I could in my best way I was and I have no regrets. I didn't kill anyone. Well I was involved in some operations one kidnapping which ended in a in the death of a kidnap person. I was personally involved but that was not a deliberate. Well we call it collateral damage. But in in my time after Stalin's death the KGB Chairman Andropov. Stated I mean absolutely unequivocally. No political assassinations I'm against it. And in my time not one single assassination happened. Kidnapping was part of the program. Was not did not mean killing Alexander or loaf the guy who defected in 1939 I believe are afraid of being purged and killed in Russia great intelligence officer and chief of soviet intelligence operations in Western Europe. He came to the United States. He was on the wanted list. She was to be executed. He was sentenced to death in Absentia. We found him in 19 seventy nine sixty nine sixty nine. Sixty nine we found him in Cleveland area. We did not shoot him. We approached him and said listen you have a great historic chance to come back home. You will be forgiven. His wife intervene said the **** with you all report to the FBI can out immediately the guy who traveled from my office to Cleveland area set okay I will leave but he said to Mr. Perloff. Lets me tomorrow without your Which you know software. They did meet and also said I will go home. I will go home provided. He said absolute security the Soviet leadership and this is an interesting twist in my life and career. The Soviet leadership when they were told that all loaf man sentenced to death a great name and the soviet intelligence. Traits as Stalin knew of him he wanted to get him killed them in but he could not because because he said if you touch my family stayed in Russia I will disclose the vast network of spies in Western Europe and the United States. So Stalin kept his word. He did not touch his family. Now this man is our possession. We relay this message to dependent Bureau and they deliberate deliberate decision said. Well there's some to do with this guy is he or she comes back to Russia should be given a hero's. Welcome now but he's a traitor should be given an apartment. While people thousands are waiting in line for 1015 years. Well that would be unfair to the regular Russians who are patriots. Oh no let him die in America. That was the Soviet system at the end he did die three years later. Well well that's simply part of the answer to your question. Your turn questions please fire away. Yes >> Okay on a new book out called Fixing intelligence either view bike bike boom. And like on the former NSA director. Bio don't belong below them. Have you read it or no I have no bill but I haven't read the book now. Sorry. Ok another question Student. Yes sir. Do you think they're worth corporate intelligence technological age. Multinational corporation would be seen as an extension. Is there a trend toward corporate intelligence in a technology age and is corporate intelligence and extension >> Or would it be extended into the realm of politics I've had some experience in that after I retired I did a lot of sort of corporate counter espionage in the there was a Economic Espionage Act passed and I don't know mid-1990s it. First of all to protect American industry and technical secrets essentially from foreigners. The great irony of that is up until maybe a couple of years ago most of the prosecutions under that act were American companies was stealing from American companies. It's a growing thing because one of the theaters of war now other than getting an a shooting was a isn't technology >> Everybody still remember anybody else else out there in the commercial side it's just the way governments admins trying to steal from us. It's a huge industry all over the place both the American against American and foreigners against foreigners and American companies still far drop off. He was not as brutal as Stalin. He would put people in jail in embeds cases psychiatric institutions and in the best of cases exile psych Solzhenitsyn and others Mr. Putin chose a different way most sophisticated guy. I mean he would use tax bill is economic pressures to squeeze them out of the markets using whole legal ways. Close down the business irregularity you'll always find irregularities is you know you bring some Sanitary Commission. Here are some phi as somebody they find a lot of flaws in this building or elsewhere. They will find deliberately. And that's the way they control private business today and the private businesses response. It's a kind of interaction for the benefit of the both sides. Questions yes. Early willing real Anatoli Cutler by falling alibi. He has Russian background. He served. Let's not conduct the private. Okay thank you if you want to if you want to describe an interesting story about it that's fine but the well-cooked red agent played played a crucial role in my career in a sense and the intelligence because I recruited him bulb thanks to his pro leftists pro communist views. When he worked for the thigh call Chemical Corporation and had access to classified research papers and actually samples of a solid fuel for missiles That was when I was a Fulbright Scholar and later later later this guy was exposed by one of the Russian defectors. And his name was mentioned to the FBI that was some seven years later. He was arrested because he had no proof or evidence so they guy fled to Russia. Thanks to a good lawyer who said go to the French Air France company. They never provide lists of passengers to the immigration authorities in the United States. That was reimagined 30 years ago they would not co collaborate with the US government. So the guy fled from the United States became a fugitive on the FBI list. In Russia was given a great cultural reception given a good job. But he lived in America with Russian background too long. He did not understand that his illusions and view of social lives had nothing to do with realities of real socialists. So instead of keeping his mouth shut as most of my compatriots TD he would open blah blah seeing some defects in the Russian system political economic. And he was immediately reported to the KGB by his colleagues that this guy from the United States is undermining the foundations of our system. Although the KGB and thought Oh Jesus why did he come to us maybe was recruited by the CIA and his job is to fan discord among the Russian intellectuals he was right. I mean bright bright individual. So they started investigation lasted for nearly ten years. They found no evidence whatsoever that he was a CIA spy but it was a shame to let him go free so they decided to put him in jail anyway. How do they do it it's a simple rough and procedure. A fellow from nowhere comes and says Listen I have some I want to buy some US dollar. You have any US dollar here and yet some we exchange or Yeah sure let's do it. That's the addiction and they do the exchange. And they were both arrested on the spot. And that guy cook was sentenced to eight years for the violation of current regulations but the way they solve the problem. Question from a student yes sir in the back and the aisle. Please speak up >> Let me make sure we understand the first question first after the Cold War the KGB and CIA both had to fill avoid. How did they fill the void why don't we address that question to Paul about the CIA what's your other one OK I'll answer the first one. The second 1 first I don't believe it should be simple. The question the question CIA budget ci budget is undisputed. Should it be disclosure that I have a secret at $9 billion according to the niche media. If you're going to have a secret intelligence organization keep some of it's sacred >> I think your question was after the Cold War was over what are the CIA due to fill the fact to fill a vacuum of work. That's sort of I think I think the question is was there a vacuum did you I mean people sort of said what's an intelligence agent gets agency. Do you answer that a little bit earlier but the feeling was that one of the paste dividends after the Cold War was over you didn't need an intelligence organization. Senator Moynihan whom I talked about a little earlier was one of the main proponents of that. The agency slowly started getting away from the business of the Cold War end >> Trying to steal secrets in the Watson back and directing its efforts essentially towards terrorism and the kind of the third world but clearly not fast enough. Okay question from the community member Yes sir. Aides Walker Hanson organization within here you can see what is the feeling. I mean it's my understanding that light is collected by all these people that that we gotta repeat the question they're not really can't hear. The question essentially was with aims and Walker and the other >> I cases in the United States of US officials who served as agents for the Soviet Union why doesn't the US deal with the question who uses the phrase deal with and now suggest don't we have a death penalty in this country out part. The first part was Why does the wife get the pension and that's one of my favorite makes me furious. It's very simple. The Congress passed an amendment to the intelligence appropriations bill in 1996 that specified. If the wife of a spy cooperates with the investigation she will get the guy's residual pension. That caught your congress passed that the net result of that. In the in the Hansen case was we had very little leverage over him because he what did he have to lose he's going to go to jail for white. And the only thing was wife got would get the pension. She cooperated fully. She was going to get the pension. And he said well you know I'm a air it's MA. She got the pension because that's the way the law reads because she cooperated with the bureau and with us design of degree one address and the addition and addition the issue is why not Fry I'm first. Right in the Hansen case the judgment was it's better. He's going to get life without parole. It's better to do that than than go to trial. Try to get the death penalty. If you do that he's not going to cooperate at all. If he gets if he pleads which you allow him to a heat it's on the terms that he has to cooperate with our investigation afterwards of what he gave away. So from the national security point of view the judgment is it's better to try to find out the damage it did. To the extent you can then get the sort of cultural visceral satisfaction of electric shooting and shooting them right off the bat that dance >> Mike and I tend to buy favor that not only because I get paid to do the investigation but I think on national security grounds at least in this case was weren't Trier. Question from a student. Sir spying ostensibly or any sort of diplomatic repercussions. That's ok. The question is both of you have talked at some >> To some extent tonight about friendly countries spying on one another. Are there any diplomatic repercussions when a friendly nation is found to be spying against an ally or a friend. In our society. There they're usually repercussions domestically when we got caught particularly during the Clinton administration when there'd be a flap. We'd get beaten up by the State Department and the Administration of Strobe Talbott President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State kept my myself and another guy up all night writing talking points for the for President Clinton before a summit. So he could apologize to whatever Soviet Russian leader is going to mean for our trying to recruit a I think a military intelligence officer in the Russians hadn't even complained about it. At that yeah there are domestic repercussions in this country. And there is I was we were talking earlier that we had rather good intelligence at the height of the Cold War that these guys would set up situations where we'd get caught say in Moscow trying to steal secrets. And there'd be a big diplomatic flap and we'd all get criticizing and set the CIA father into the hole that we're getting ourselves into >> I have a question to General come looking for me. And if you have a very good move on if you're not in one way. It could we get information. You get. And the other which is the question of anion. Bakelite laugh. Yeah you went for I for free. In a sense >> If you're really a V. Okay let me short-circuit the first question because that's a real easy one. You can find information on the international espionage Music International Spy Museum on the internet. Easily just do a search under that. It's it has been it has been widely publicized. So let's but we'll move on from there. How about the second question what does it say what does the try your trial last year on espionage charges which in essence we're about revelations you made in your book published several years ago. Ten years ago >> Now they bring it a trial last year Jaroslav wants to know what does that say about the current regime in Moscow above the guys my former colleagues are now running the fs of my country and they believe it's time to take the act of revenge to punish the guy who rock the boat years ago who contributed to the destruction of the KGB and I did and I do not deny that. So this is the best of the time. And they used the book published nine years ago in the United States which reveal the organizational structure of the Soviet KGB. Well since I wrote that book at least 25 KGB officers defected to the west. They disclosed everything that is possible to reveal about their organizers that was truly a kangaroo court. I mean a political vengeance on the part of my former colleagues and Mr. Putin when he came to power. One of his first public pronouncements was to brand me as a traitor. Well in return I wrote an open letter to Mr. Putin saying that with his education and law he's probably oblivious of the presumption of innocence. One individual who needs to undergo as legal process to prove that he is a traitor. If I I said in my letter if i were of your mindset I would call you a war criminal. Because what you didn't Chechnya will never be forgiven will never be forgotten and you'll probably be ending the docs and the International Court of Justice at 1. And I could call you see there are some mild allegations not proven yet but I will say that was my response to Mr. Putin's nuts and Bo The Trial and charges followed a few months later. He could not stand that insult humiliation. And now I'm futures and funnels. And ask you this maybe seems like a silly question to ask you but have you been back to Russia since the last time. I'm not suicidal type. When was the last time you were there last time I left trust in the fall of 1995. I came to the United States from a very good position. I'm in reputation was perfect at the time. I mean in the government I wasn't good graces financially absolute perfect I mean but I was lured by the AT and T offer to become the consultant. And I was instrumental in the promotion of AT and T sort of presence in Russia I was one of the top players in the joint venture which we formed in Moscow. And I have a great citation from 18 T for my outstanding services. But I did not plan to stay a year long but then things started to change in Russia. And well I thought I should not go back home. It's perhaps a little bit dangerous. Now I know it's it's makes no sense. And I have no desire to go back to the country which is run by the KGB and which has humiliated me as a person and human dignity to me is number one. And that's absolutely what I found. Response good treatment cordial reception this country. I'm grateful to this kind of thing. This country are not discounting. I'll apply for citizenship. Soon >> Then it'll run for office. Or the comment I was assassinated right that's right. Yeah I heard that Western is a comment on the assassination this morning the Prime Minister of Serbia. And probably internal strife we know it has nothing to do with the CIA KGB. I think it's purely domestic problems. Purely DMX Yes sir >> Okay. Alright we'll take the first question and we'll leave the last one I less unless you have a strong desire to comment on it you'll have to explain the details for the rest of the audience but hold on a second. The first question is please both of you comment on the state of counter intelligence in the United States >> Both in the earlier era and in the current era what is the state of counter intelligence in the US probably wanna Well you mentioned angle tan angle two is ahead of kinda tell the CIA and its a very very long story but suffice it to say they got all wrapped up in a lot of conspiracies conspiracy theories which parallelized the age the clandestine service because the idea was that we were so badly penetrated the KGB was controlling everything. That's it in one sentence. What you go on for about two hours or two days on the net result of that it was that we didn't weren't able to do much against the Soviets are about ten to 12 years because of this paranoia. Something happened which is I think even more important called Bill Colby became the director. And he overreacted to that excess and it was an excess. And he said you don't need any counter intelligence. Hi I have a statement of his and writing instead every CIA case officer will be his own counterintelligence officer that led us into the la-la land of not paying any attention which ended up in all sorts of disasters. So I think the lesson is to generalize. You have to be sort of stay in the middle and be reasonable and don't go to either extreme and the counter intelligence arena Colby went one way Angular one the other with equally disastrous results >> Or like from the point of view of a Soviet agent in the United States. What it countering what did us counterintelligence look like to you in the old days look more impressive because we did not know enough. We ran about five sources inside the FBI in the span of last 50 years. Well one of the justice department actually not the BIM in Judith column. A young lady picked up in 43 and gradually move to the Justice Department position Popes but we overestimated and that's good for the intelligence. It's better to overestimate your counterpart than underestimate. But I think the overall level of the counterintelligence in the United States is inadequate and it's not because they have bad people or inadequate or our inept or anything. Now because the culture of this country openness and willingness to go to the extremes. Lack of this obsessive suspicion of a distrust of your own people that what makes it difficult to run counter intelligence operations. It's it's it's contrary to the fabric and spirit of American society. As I know it's and this is why the countering tells us cannot succeed. When people feel that they their liberties are sort of on the threat than people who raise these issues while some of these complaints have no absolutely no grounds. It's a legitimate process of checking some security issues which are existent in this country but people would not accept that. This is why the country ptosis is not as good as it should be. Okay here's what we're gonna do. I realize that there are probably some people in the audience who are bored to tears and it's nine o'clock and we cut off at nine o'clock >> Both of our guests have agreed to stay for a few more minutes. And so what I'm gonna do is announce Now if you if you'd like to leave by all means do our guests will not be insulted by that by all means take off will continue until 915. I promise that we'll stop at 915 and call it quits. So if you'd like to leave please do we're going to go on. If you're if you're not bored here's a please leave quietly. If you're going to leave a question from a student. From attacking the United States of America. Okay all right. Okay the question is if if you guys were so good in the KGB why didn't the Soviet Union attack the United States and the second question was with the the questioner posited that the US reputation is now declined and in that circumstance He's asking whether you see the greater potential for attack now as a result of that. Well to attack the United States a new clip WHO was just inconceivable. Retaliation would fall emitted >> Now a nuclear deterrent kept Russia from trying any military adventures against the United States. So we resorted to subversion as the main tool trying to undermine American institutions American economy faith of the American people in their system and their government. That was number one tool every time. Now today Well as I said Rosseau is militarily civil nuclear power. That's what makes it a great nation adults talking about its cultural heritage has great history but otherwise Russia is now working hard to achieve the level of Portugal by the year 2017 >> So what I will the United States that's a whole. Maybe I disagree that the image of the United States is one of greater weakness or less power. I think. Today United States recognized around the world as being the only real military power the only people who attack it or suicidal bombers. Okay question from a community member in the back yes over here on the on the site. Now Go ahead >> Okay question is you've spoken a lot about intelligence in the past any comment on the state of US intelligence about North Korea or Iraq poets probably I haven't worked there for all time and they are able to keep a few secrets at least for me. I have no idea I hope we have good sources of Iraq I just hello. And I know nothing about North Korea. I'm sorry. Well years ago we trained Iraqi intelligence and counterintelligence offices in the former USSR. So we do have some friends in Iraq in Iraq also has some friends in Moscow. Mr. prima cough. Supposedly allegedly is on the payroll of the Iraqi government to or not. Well that's what they say. Mr. Jerry no ski. One of the leaders of the Russian conservatives nationalist is also receiving money from Iraq and he does not deny it. He says we have economic and trade deals with Iraq. So that's true we make money interact. So well we do have intelligence presence but our possession generally don't touch. Iraq. Iraq is part of a world where we hope to make more money. And in Russia is very concerned about its economic competitiveness about its economic survival. Mr. Putin is focused on that. He shares you now. So we still Iraq owes us $8 billion. We may lose it if America tax who will pay back in American tax taxpayers probably in the United States right we yield and lost a deal of $40 billion which was about to be just made a few months ago. I made a deal for $40 billion in the amine exploration and exploitation of a new oil fields there are small companies and now all shelved we are not interested in that war. Back. Yes. Ma'am. >> Okay the question the question is is intelligence of the type you guys are both spoken and espionage Azara you're right espionage of the type you've spoken about tonight compatible with democracy. The question I gave the example of the allegations that the US may have been involved in in promoting the political turmoil in Venezuela >> Paul you sort of touched on this in your opening remarks but first of all in my view there's a big difference between espionage which is stealing secrets and covert action or whatever you wanna call it which is what you're talking about trying to over allegedly us trying to overthrow Perez or whatever his name is down there. I don't I don't see if you haven't actually the United States in my view is the only major power that does not fully accept espionage as a perfectly legitimate way to further its national interests I don't know of any other country perhaps except Canada. That doesn't believe that. So there are circles in this country and part of our culture that doesn't like and I happen to believe it's necessary and we're doing covert action is another totally different thing. And that's essentially a matter of national policy. Many of the things the CIA has been blamed for doing or trying to do or criticize came the idea the ideas and the orders came right out of the White House as often as not from liberal democratic administrations is from right-wing Republican ones. Question from a community member. Yes sir. I'm sorry behind you. Why did it take so long to uncover all of which aims how many years did he operate seven or eight of my theory is as follows. We talked about an angle tin and he's is excesses in reaction to angle PTEN. There was I referred to a pendulum swing on domestic Colby were counter intelligence essentially was eliminated and CIA a lot of people's courage several people's careers during the angles and time were ruined. Because there were suspected of being spies you get to the mid-80s the people in the senior parts of the clandestine service had experience that unpleasantness of individuals being looked at as Bob possibles by their career's ruined and there was a kind of emotional hangover that yet don't investigate people. Alright and that in the net result of that as a starting in 1986 on as obvious there was a spy in the place. What people did I wasn't directly involved with did a lot of nice analysis try to figure out where the clues were commonalities and know but a look for the people there were roughly well in 1991 when nothing that had been accomplished I came along and got sufficient power and the counter intelligence arena. And I said we're going to figure out who I was or what the problem what I said along with a couple of other people and I'm not nice We're going to invest look at the people who know the secrets and we drew up a list of a 198 people who knew the sequence and we narrowed it down. So I will go on for hours of how we did it. We narrowed the list down to smaller and smaller numbers and we got lucky among we concentrated on four or five people. One of whom was aims and we got lucky and proved by analysis he was the SPEI. So why it wasn't solved in my opinion sooner is they didn't look at the people. They didn't look at. The people is a emotional overreaction to the angled can accesses. Can we make this the last question from a student >> Back in the back there yeah. That'll be an easy one. The question is are there any places the US and Russia do not spy again there's been both a formal and a formal prohibition against spying on Israel by the leg and a plow its on Rush side were also not supposed to spy on her Majesty's Government. Who cares >> All of them really has no prohibitions Ovadia so East European nations were spied upon that espionage system was instituted in the wake of the Czech events in the fall of August of 1968 we understood at the time we cannot trust our allies in Eastern Europe and that was a standing order by the Politburo to open full-time espionage activities run residences recruit people in Poland and Czechoslovakia Bulgari everywhere. While other countries are all well look we would recruit people even a small country like benign Have you heard of that's an Africa small state absolutely irrelevant in world politics. Why because in beneath there were Western embassies the United States Embassy was very small one. And we would recruit journalists in binning >> Local police officers who would try to befriend secondaries black Americans. I mean African Americans in the US Embassy and befriend and turned them into spines. That's what I believed was important. Otherwise there's about a billion. Alright before you leave tonight quick note about our next program which I think will also be a unique experience on Wednesday March 26th we'll welcome Martha Kessler who has spent the last 30 years prowling around the Middle East and South Asia for the CIA gathering and analyzing intelligence about everything from who wants to make peace to who wants to make war to who wants to blow up an embassy or an American ship somewhere or carry a suicide bomb into a wedding reception as an intelligence officer deeply immersed in the Middle East Kessler represents in our series. The kind of officer the US relies upon not only for national security but also for promoting us peace policies in a very difficult neighbourhood of the world. A reminder that if you'd like to be on an email mailing list of notifications about these programs please print your name clearly on some sheets back on the back on the way out of the room. And now I hope you'll join me in expressing our appreciation on behalf of the University of Delaware to both of our guests this evening spy versus spy. Thank you to Ole collagen and Paul Redmond for coming to the university
Global Agenda_3-12-2003_Kalugin-Redmond
From Robert Diiorio December 23, 2019
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Part of the Global Agenda 2003 Spies, Lies & Sneaky Guys series - Global Agenda_3-12-2003_Kalugin_Redmond
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