Okay. >> I think we'll get started. >> Good afternoon to everybody. My name is Dana Galileo and I'm chair of the Coordinating Committee on Education who is, has the privilege of running the open hearings that we have this year and today we'll be one on grade forgiveness for lack of a better term. And this comes from the committee on undergraduate studies. And so what I'd like to do is to turn the podium over to the Chair of undergraduate studies, Fred Hofstetter. Allow him to give a little bit of background and explain different proposals that have come to U gs. And then I will take the podium back over and, and call on people as they want to make comments. And then Fred, if he can address the comments, can be part of the conversation. And the only thing I'd like to say is that we need to be done a couple minutes before four o'clock when the College of Arts and Sciences has their Senate meeting in here. So if we're still going strong and about fibo eval, remind everybody that we would have to be done in a couple of minutes. >> So with that friend Hofstetter, thank you, Denny. >> I want to thank Denny and the Senate and Sheldon, the Senate president, and Karen pulsatile spray. And Joe back there who is recording this. Want to thank all of you for your arrangements you've made for this hearing. So in the interest of time, since we only have an hour, I made a little executive summary of where we are here. So let me just get right to it. Those of you of course with perfect vision have probably already read it, but I knew I wouldn't have been able to like that font size. So and in terms of the light level, do you prefer it like this or maybe like this? >> Which way is better? Number one or number two? >> Number two. >> Alright. >> And see, that's how we're going to resolve this issue by voting. >> Alright, so what we have here is a framework for constructing a resolution recommending UD grade forgiveness policy. >> So many faculty, students, and administrators believe that Udi needs a grave a grade forgiveness policy, but differences of opinion have stymied past attempts at creating such a policy. It seems that almost any the condition that you try to put on the policy raises all kinds of issues that have just kind of parallelize this process. And so people blame you GS, right? That U gs killed it or it died in U gs. So So I'm here now and it's my honor to chair EGS this year to try and move this forward. And I think Robert's rules can help us do that because, you know, according to Roberts Rules, do you put a resolution on the floor of the Senate? And we're going to put the best resolution forward that we can. And then the senators debate it and offer amendments. And they either vote those amendments up or down and then vote on the resolution itself. So I think this is the kind of a situation where we could perhaps use Robert's Rules to its, to its purpose. So the basic resolution can be stated as you see here in the bold print. If a student retake a course, the new grade replaces the old grade in computing GPA, but the old grade remains on the transcript. So this is the root form of the resolution. And if we pass this, then it would simply be a modification of the repeat Grade policy. It really wouldn't be a policy on forgiveness. So this is kind of where we start. There actually are other institutions that do it this way, including one of our aspirational peers through desert that way. Now the possible addition. So this is where we start getting into problems when we try to modify this basic resolution. So in the hearing, as the subtitle down there says, we want to try and get all the possibilities on the table. Now what I've done is I've gone through all my emails that I've received since the hearing was an ounce. And I'm grateful that my friend John Morgan, who has the record for the highest number of those. >> Very thoughtful, each one very thoughtful and progressively more thoughtful. >> So I've come up with ten possible modifications that we might add to that motion. So you might say in condition number one, only courses in which the student received a low grade can be repeated. Or in number two, only courses taken before the student amasses a certain number of credits such as 30, we actually think the magic number is 27. Only so many courses such as three or four can have the grade forgiven from counting and GPA or number four, only undergraduates can have grades. >> Forget it. >> So this would not apply to graduate students. Or number five, you might say grades of z cannot be dropped from the computation of GPA. Or in number six, grades of x, academic dishonesty cannot be dropped from the computation of GPA or a number seven, If a student retakes, of course, multiple times, only the lower of the grades, of the two grades or the lowest of three or more grades will not be used in the computation of GPA, but the other low grades would count. Condition eight. Repeated courses must be taken at UD, so you couldn't take them somewhere else and transfer them in. Number nine, the advisors permission is required for a grade to be forgiven. >> And Number ten, that the deans permission is required for a grade to be forgiven. >> Now, there may be other conditions and we want to get those out on the table when we open this up for discussion. But these are the ten conditions that I've received so far. Now. We have motions on the table. We have three specific motions on the table and we have a fourth one that U gs created just today. Egs met for a couple of hours. Noon today. And I think we came up with something pretty clever, but let's first look at the motions that were on the table before today. So according to emotion number-one, undergraduate students who received a grade of less than c minus in any course at the University of Delaware are subject to the following provisions of grade forgiveness. And here we have up to two courses are eligible. All attempts must be taken at UT. No course taken before the policy becomes effective is eligible. Only the second grade would be used to recalculate the student's GPA and the original course and grade will remain on the student's transcript. Motion number two, which we were considering earlier this year. Undergraduate students who received a grade of less than c minus in any course may repeat the course subject to the following provisions of grade forgiveness. The highest grade will be used to recalculate the student's GPA and the original course and grade will remain on the student's transcript. Emotion number three, which stalled in huge CES last year. Undergraduate students who received a grade of less than c minus in any course taken within their first 27 credits or within their first semester at the University of Delaware, or are subject to the following provisions. The student will be allowed to repeat such courses once for an improved grade up to two separate courses not exceeding eight credits are eligible. The courses must be retaken within one year after the original course. Only the second grade will be used to recalculate the student's GPA and the original course and grade will remain on the student's transcript. Now, what we came up with this morning, and I wondering who to credit for this. I can't remember which COGS member initially brought this forward was a U Avalon. Have Rowan's worked hard on this. So the one the idea we had this morning, which accomplishes everything in motion three, but sounds far less complicated, is that students in their first year at UD may withdraw from any course until the last day of class, in which case the grade will be a w, like magic, this appears. So let you accomplish the same thing without so many rules. Now there might be some problem. This is new. We've only been thinking about this for a few hours. So there could be some problem in this that we haven't noticed, but UTS spent a couple of hours today talking about this and and considering the pluses and minuses of it. Now, the current policy is in the UD undergraduate and graduate catalog. The current policy on this is not in the faculty handbook, It's in the catalog. And here it is. And the the relevant part of this is that toward the end of the third paragraph there, that all other grades for courses taken for credit at the university are included in the calculation of the index, including the first in later grades for courses that have been repeated, the credits for course is repeated to improve a great are counted only once toward the minimum required for graduation. But they, they camped too. They count in GPA. They currently count in GPA. So this is the current policy, this is the repeat course policy. Now we have a spreadsheet showing policies from 30 institutions. The provost's office put this together, including or was it the registrars? The registrar's office put this together. We're grateful to the registrar's office for the time they spent doing this. So we've got a spreadsheet that I might refer to from time to time, depending on it's a very wide spreadsheet. Not much of it fits on the screen here, but the, you can see the names of the institutions in red are our aspirational peers. The others are universities that certainly are in the same league with us, their peer institutions. And it's interesting, defined Connecticut with a pretty liberal policy and Lehigh with a policy that's almost like our basic, that base resolution I began with without really any conditions on it. So this this information is all available and we might refer back to this. At this point. I'd like to suggest that we give associate registrar Naomi nash. I'm sorry, I didn't tell you about this. Just a moment to speak. Just it makes sense to have her speak after me just for a minute about the constraints that are information system places on these kinds of policies. Clearly, the kind of policy, the policy we create has to be one that can be implemented. >> So would you like to condemn? >> Sure. >> So I'm grateful to Naomi for per help in doing this. Maybe the screen I'll leave you with. Which screen do you want me to wait with? With maybe this one. Let's see. Should that should come up on a good day or summed away? Well, let's not worry about yeah. Okay. >> In the registrar's office, we just wanted to add that certainly the faculty senate can put forward any policy that they so desire. I think it's just important to understand the implications to resources and workload depending on the policies that are passed. So for example, motion number two, which is a systemwide Second grade replaces a first grade. That is something that could be done automatically within the UT SIS system. And it's not students specific so that the system could handle it. And there would not be any sort of involvement from student gaining permission from Assistant Dean or that sort of thing. And then depending on the variations of the different motions and what adaptations are put to them would depend on what work would be required, if someone would be needed to sort of approve it for the student. If a web form would need, need to be designed and passed through the various systems for us to individually touched that students record to remove the previous grade or second grade or whatever that provision might be. And so depending on the various material within, the emotions might also impact us as to when we can implement the new policy. So right now you see effective dates on here for fall 2013. And depending on how complicated it becomes, we might need a little bit longer. So we just wanted to share that as people are discussing different motions so that people can be aware of what does it put on worked blow to advisors were two assistant deans. If it's not something systematic OK. With I'd like to open it up for comments or questions. >> Yes. >> Have you sorry. >> I'm sturgeon and I Michael Arnold, frog and Economics and Director of the Honors Program. >> And I've heard about this policy a bit, maybe not as quite as long as Fred suggested that over the last couple of years, I'm still struggling to understand what problem it's aimed at addressing. >> I don't see what that is. >> I was troubled by the wording and the resolution. >> I think there are, I, I have, I have several problems. >> One, this notion that many students find it, find college difficult. >> I think this problem in particular might have just as much to do with students having difficulty getting out of bed and coming to class. And about 70% of the cases. So it's not clear to me what problem we're addressing with this. Other concerns I have with the current resolution is the academic dishonesty issue. >> Astute these. >> The idea that a student could retake a course in which they had cheated and get that grade removed from their GPA. I find troubling. I find that troubling than that of the institutions on that list. This would put us in the 14% of the most lenient institutions with regard to grade forgiveness, far, a substantial majority of them do not allow gray forgiveness. >> And I think there's probably good reasons for why they don't. I'm a little worried that the policy is general, is what's announced in the current resolution would be classes. >> Students with a lot of wealth could indefinitely retake courses. >> Students with less wealth would be much more constrained. I also wonder why, you know, from an honors program perspective, why a C minus? >> What's so special about that student who wants to go on to medical school is going to be damaged by a b, potentially. >> Why don't we allow them to retake courses for higher grades as well? I just think this whole issue is fraught. >> I'm glad to hear it's been dead and dying in huge Yes, and I hope it continues at, indefinitely. >> I'm one of the faculty who doesn't support this at all. I don't quite see the problem is >> Addressing the last thing. >> I also find it a little bit troubling to think that academic exploration is equated with the need for a grade forgiveness policy? >> I mean, yeah, it's one of the clauses in the resolution. >> I think we should be encouraging students to do outstanding work in the classroom as they explore. I do recognize that we have undergrads who come that are under prepared for what they get into that in their first semester or first year. And I I could potentially be convinced that a policy like this that applied to some of the first year introductory courses could make sense, particularly in some of the math and science areas. But this general policy that allows unlimited, great forgiveness, I think it creates all the wrong incentives for our students. And I'm very troubled by that notion. >> Kid, would anyone from U gs or bread like the response or somebody else? At this point, I don't think the goal is to argue with the opinions that faculty and students and administrators make here. But to get out on the table, especially since we're short on time, I'd rather not debate that, but here more because we only have an hour. >> Okay. Jonathan, thank you. Well, since read since you mentioned that some people in the administration we need such a pause, I'd like to hear from some administrators what their reasons on why this pause, which as I told you, life support in a general sort of way, but I'm worried about a lot of the details. >> Well, this might be a good time to ask Associate Provost Jim Richards to speak. >> I'm sorry. >> Did you hear what he said? >> He'd like to hear from any administrator. >> Actually, unlike our faculty data, that wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do. >> I'm Jim Richards. >> I'm also faculty and kinesiology and Applied Physiology, and I advise a lot of those students who go to medical school and who go to PA school and PT school, an OT school in short, a lot of the allied health professional studies is where most of our students go. >> They are at this point competing against students from schools who have these policies. And I don't know where your statistics are from, but mine are quite different. >> There's a lot of schools that actually have this policy in place. >> And it kinda puts our students behind the eight ball. >> So even though they're good students, some of them do struggle their freshman year. We see it frequently. >> Some of them struggle under their sophomore year. >> Typically, they constraint now and do well towards the end of the four-year period and be successful in getting into those schools. But it's, it's hard to watch these students who have such a hard time with freshman year, who turn out to be really, really strong students. The rest of their academic career get paralyzed for the courses they took their freshmen year. And so I think this policy would, would help our students tremendously in terms of their career goals and aspirations. And right now, I think we're behind the eight ball and not putting it in place. >> Yes. >> I am have a similar response and I advise our conservation students now to not even take general chemistry in their first year just so that they can avoid those kinds of issues and jump into it in their sophomore year just because there are so many other things that students are learning and besides the basic curriculum. >> And that has actually worked out really well for our students. >> But if they do choose to jump in and their first freshman year and they do get to see they have basically locked themselves out of graduate school. And it's if they will, if they can repeat it and do well, people will give them a second chance. So I I'm for it again. >> State your name for him because he casts monarch conservation. >> Sorry. >> Thank you guys. >> For sure. >> There's nothing right now that prevents any student from repeating a course that GPA they issue. >> I mean, if it's a, B versus C, the effect on the GPA would be down. And the probably the third digit after the decimal place. >> And the cumulative GPA is computed after four years. >> Now, I guess where I see this policy having the biggest effect is on number one, making it a little harder for some students to flunk out at the end of the freshman year and making it easier for students to get off of academic probation by retaking courses in which they got low grades. >> And I see those as desirable thing. So I would say that in general I'm sympathetic with this policy. Although as Fred said, I have a number of objections, which you'll see several of them up there to the specific very broad policy that was distributed weeks ago. >> I would say that in general, I'm supportive of having a policy, although I would say the devil is in the details and we really need to get those right. >> Yes, pat pat balls, biology, and like Jim, we also read by tomato meter pre-med and pre-dental students. And I know for the evaluation committee haste that GPA your GPA comes into place would be we'd have to adjust our policy. But it's my understanding that med schools, dental schools, we calculate it. So I'm not sure maybe, you know, Jim, what their policy is on repeated course and I don't know what your policy is. So I'm not sure our GPA would have that kind of an impact. >> I don't know how they're calculating it. >> Rejected courses either. >> I know some of the schools that do this don't leave the original great. >> There. >> It will replace it with an r. >> Just indicating a courses through repeated comments. >> Yes. >> Part of education >> I feel like a disincentive for students to take advantage of some of the other resources in their first year. Students, they may tell, of course, not seek out there Professor heresies are twittering like that. Such that they're trying to do is get John court, right? >> I just just off the cuff comment. I'm not sure. >> I'm happy I would be to know my physician had repeated courses and an undergraduate ordered hitting me in the med school. >> I'd like to see them do it right the first time and not have to have some policy that they will all I'm going to ask my doctor there. >> Yes. Another question that came to my mind when I was reading through this, by the way that the data I looked at his schools was the once they collected so from those 30 institutions, 17 of them do not allow grade forgiveness. Another eight have from significant restrictions to at least some restrictions. And only five of them allowed outright unlimited grade forgiveness, as far as I can tell from reading the spreadsheet. But the other question I was wondering and looking at all this, is there any evidence that a student who retakes a course in which they received an F gets a B the second time around. And Math 241, for example, does well in Math 242243, is it that they just figured out enough of what the faculty member was doing when they took 241, that when they took them a second time. The game, the system and gotta be, and there still aren't any better at calculus than they were when they got the f the first time around. >> I don't know if anybody's looked at that, but that seems like that should be a really important piece of this policy. >> If we're going to implement it, that actually matters and what they do subsequently. >> What you just point painted one scenario, but students can also take the course the second time. >> You got a different professor and do remarkably better just from the fact that they had a different faculty. Sure. >> So my question is what do they do after that? >> Is, is there evidence that when they retake that course, they subsequently statistically significantly do better. >> As soon as you have seen in Colorado, I'm math major on campus as to why the API version in high school. And I end up getting a professor because obviously that different teachers mascot from Connecticut and I got an a, an average Palestinian vanadium batteries signing thing. The material more than one time, you get more familiar with coming down and easier to understand once you seem like a background of it? Yes. >> Yeah. Doug country from chemical engineering. >> Over the years, I very often taught thermodynamics, chemical engineering majors. And I've had a number of student, by the number of students retake class and third, third sort of end up in two groups. >> Some of them do substantially better the second time they doing others to pretty much the same word dropout change major or something. >> But there are a reasonable number of students that will go from a D or an out to an a or B. >> You're doing that sometimes it's just a question of them getting up to speed on the expectations. >> You know, It's just too much of a learning curve. >> They're ready for it. >> And when they repeated, they define. >> Another experience I've had is with students that are speaking English as second language. >> And they get here and they're struggling both with the course content and the language. >> And after they're here for a year, they take the course again and do substantially better. >> And I saw one student who was really struggling with language go from an F to an a. >> And I taught the course of time giving a factual question for Jeff polar. >> If Kim jeff At the end of freshman year, what percentage of freshmen literally flunk out, do not come back. But it's fairly small. >> It used to be like, oh, yeah, I was thinking about that. >> It may be then less than since you rub her. >> But again, I think we've made those policies in place now. It's more difficult to flood yet of the operation. But yeah, based on pulling point deficit, it's a little bit more difficult. >> Specially off to his first events in your name, sir. >> Sorry, everyone. Abraham. >> I was involved in a lot of this discussion early on with Danny and others and end, I think we came to some agreement that a great forgiveness policy was worth looking at and may degrade. Forgiveness is a term that sort of plausible nose on a joint. But I think what we really are talking about, how you repeat classes, whether it's worthwhile to student treating a clause like we're listening to. I think many students believe it would be, and they wouldn't be punished for it would be a helpful things. >> I think coming up with policies is one way of kinda address then I know the all complications when you put in many, many nuances to the actual procedure. >> And I was really excited to see what an undergraduate studies came up with today because I think it really addresses a lot of the issues for early on students careers. >> It doesn't need to be addressed. >> The dynamics, which has taken a lead software, I think, but I think it puts some of the onus on the Student when you have them have the ability to withdraw from courses in the first year. >> It also brings up a point about, well, what goes into the decision-making process of a student when they decide to repeat a clause to withdraw from a class. >> And the policy that we currently have in place with students to withdraw really at about eight weeks, they lose the ability to do that unless they get special permission with extenuating circumstances. And I think the lost motion that freight put up, there was really a way to address some of that is that they they they don't need extenuating circumstances beyond I know I could do better in this always block shouldn't be exposed. So I think that the loss motion is really with looking at closely, and I and I I do think we haven't looked at all the unintended consequences of that. >> But I think the awesome advantages to it that, that allow us some flexibility for our students and help them along the way. >> But making correct decisions for the right reason. >> And also it does it doesn't actually change things like pause, failed policy, audit policy. >> All it's doing is allowing a student to drop a class till the last day of class. >> So suppose enemies do well, credits, you're on financial aid and needs to drive biology. >> They then lose their financial aid because her at nine, credit again at this particular classes to applications of these kinds of policies or troubling That the students with or at least resources are lead they can't take advantage of. >> The weight is highly discriminatory against forced to voucher entry points. >> But now there's a simple modification of it that solves that, that can change the listener. >> Seven, double ****** good equity. Innately know course you chain chang. >> Yes, that's right. But do you change that? >> But his Michael's point now they have out dancing. >> I find the x and y half puts them at risk of losing their finding, not if they've changed listener. Okay. Don't earn credits for being listener, do they have to get around a priority setting? >> This happened in my physics to O2 course five years ago. >> I had students who would have been in trouble with being full time if they withdrew. >> But if they change to listener, they remain didn't good status. >> So all you have to do is say they can change to a listener instead of withdrawal and that will solve the issue. >> I I don't I will do I think Michael's right, John. I think that when you change the L graduates enrolled and credits aren't right? >> Yeah, that's right. But it's what it's enroll they remain enrolled as opposed to owning a house or you had to earn a certain amount of credit. That's just the hero role that keeps you as a full-time student, which used to have all kinds of applications for insurance and a number of other games. >> But there are a number of scholarships where you have to earn a minimum of 12 credits. >> Boy, who's That's columns. >> Okay. >> Well, maybe that's appropriate if they dropped out to even have to pay it back since the scholarship already paid to wish so so everything that I wanted to if it was, that's one important difference between taking a course and having the ability to take it over again versus this for what I might say. >> They've evidence come into that into an F doesn't get anything different than are actually failing the course. >> You're all felt for financial aid or if it was a C minus or a D, D, D, D. >> Okay. Any other compensates shop? >> Sheldon Pollard from Lerner College. >> I would support everything Professor Arnold has suggested. >> It's only, I think the same problems apply to this policy. >> It may hurt the best students at least relative to the other students. >> I could easily say somebody who is sure they're going to get a 40 their senior year, junior year, you're about to get a B or B plus just withdraw. >> Take it again. >> First year o this has only first year. >> Okay. Well, so first-year students who are intent on on getting a four out, and that puts him, those students who really gotta 40 relatively worse position because they actually got it on the first try. I imagine descriptive qualify to say students in their first year, you've got less than a C minus could do this. But the problem with the C minuses are about to get a C. >> You might tank the final intentionally to get a C minus. >> So you can withdraw as opposed to taking the C? >> Yes. Yes. >> Jose every element the Dina students off this. >> I'm not necessarily speaking to motion for specifically though. >> I would say that I think if the listener thing comes up as an option, the only set of emotion for us. I think that so it goes contrary to the spirit of the listener, becomes kind of a crutch. So you could just switch the listener facts, which maybe students don't practice, but I don't think we should set that policy was what I will say is that I think the spirit of a grade forgiveness policy is important to consider as we think about students success. I worked with at-risk students. >> The primary population of students, advisor students with mental health issues at the university are undergoing kind of family issues, financial issues, emotional issues. >> And I think that a great forgiveness policy does is it gives a little bit of legs for students to know that there's an option. There is another option that the lack of the tank and they're locked within, you know, potentially doing that. And you can go to kirk. We have that option. But Kirk is a fairly extreme thing and it should be a fairly extreme thing. I think that should be reserved for that way this gets, I think somewhat of a middle ground. I do agree that there are classes implications in terms of a grave forget as policy. >> But I also think, like you mentioned, Michael, you know, there's a lot of unprepared students coming in. >> And I think we need to acknowledge that. I think that we in the spirit of the policy, I don't think it's about academic under preparation. I think it's acknowledging that first-year students go through a lot of developmental change in the first-year college. That transition to college work is quite dramatic. And there are a number of things that can throw students for a loop and it's not that difficult to do. And then they're kind of they're spending 34 semesters digging out of a GPA hole, one that can easily be resolved by repeating one class. It's not, I don't think it needs to be every class and needs to be, you know, I mean, I think you set parameters. The other thing I'll say is I worked an institution prior to this University of Maryland, College Park, that had the policy advise students under that policy. And it was really helpful from a practitioner are kinda standpoint. It gave again to students the ability to say, you forge iron, you can lead the semester until the last day and then you make a decision. >> They might my only hesitation motion for is that you're making a decision. You're given the ability to make a decision before you get grades. >> I'm not sure how I feel about that versus saying you get reads and then you make a decision about what you should repeat or will you shouldn't. So that's I think the spirit of the, of the policy is one that should be considered as something else within those who weren't around. Student success issues at Delaware, which as we heard in the fall when Tinto river vascular here, we don't have very good infrastructure for helping students, whether it's probably warning systems or others in terms of, and this would be something else for advisors to help students with and say, Stay in your class, stain your bio class if they feel like they're teetering. Before that academic. >> Academic policy deadline or withdrawal deadline. >> And then let's reevaluate semester, make some break point to decisions about what makes sense for your academic future. >> Ok, my name is Trevor buttery. I'm a student here and I'm one of those students that I really did not do well my first semester. I willing and the I was just not prepared for the rigors of college at that time. >> Going from high school where you have homework due the next day, every day, and then taken Chem courses where you have a test. And by having homework you every day I get to study on your own. I was just not prepared for that. And I've been digging myself out of a hole ever since, you know, a lot of things like internships for my GPA of 3 or above or 3.2 or above. >> And because of those first grade semesters, I don't meet the requirements, even though in all of their senses, ideal. >> What's really troubling? >> Yes, re-enactment, psychology. >> I don't really want to speak for or against policy some and I want to find out about the pumps or the need. >> So I'd like to address Michael's issue. He said what's the problem? The way I would address that as I'd like to know what the problem is, what the extent of the problem is, how many students in the last ten years? >> I mean, it should be an empirical issue to some extent. How many students last ten years and actually taken another course a second time. Because this is, this only a standard problem. >> Seems to me everybody knew Rome has been addressing bio and canon, those kind of courses are, there, are, there are other issues concerning sort of philosophy and English and all the rest of it. >> And if it's only a stamp problem, and that's to talk about it in terms of stem courses, not in terms of a. And then finally, if you, if you have a liberal for again, obviously this is going to incentivize withdrawal and this can incentivize taking second courses. I'm just going to increase the incidents. >> Are we prepared for that to happen? >> To what extent should we estimate that? >> I think we might issue a hunter push. >> Foreign languages. >> I, but basically same problems. >> I don't really know what policy we are talking about. We got this one. >> And this is really high-quality, was not acceptable. Students can basically repeat courses as often as you want from freshman year to senior year. >> And that will be always hearing that the quality of our students gets better and better. >> And we have the problem with grade inflation, which was already discussed several times. And, and why does it come up nowadays? >> This problem, I am really puzzled because I think if it's only a problem of maybe if you're a biology student. >> And so then it shouldn't be applied to the entire university history. >> Jeff jordan philosophy. >> I have a question specific to four. >> As written, it doesn't distinguish between graduate undergrad, right? And if it applies to graduate, then we'd have a problem with grad who did her undergrad and UD as opposed to grads who didn't do the undergrad PUT, right? >> And then just a general comment, I've heard several people say, What's the problem? Of course, Faculty Senate motions don't have to be remedial only. I mean, we can say isn't a good policy what we have in place, but we had a better idea. >> A better policy in place. >> There doesn't, doesn't have to be a problem, something necessary condition of, of faculty senate motions that they solve a problem. >> We can improve on a policy, right? >> And it and it could one day saved your life. I mean, I'm not being facetious about that. And this is kind of an answer to the comments from honors. I mean, I agree with that point of view and I don't and I would expect it, but what we learned in huge, Yes, we have a member of the nursing faculty on UTS and I was very surprised at how she answered this question. So if a nurse gets a C And of course and retakes the course and gets a B or against the NEH, will she be or he a better nurse? I expected the answer would be no. >> The answer is yes. >> She will he or she will be of that or nurse. If this holds across the disciplines were raising people's level of competence. And if it's in the medical area, it could one day save your life contest, Jon. >> Thank you. But following what the general I'm sorry I missed your name in the back and saying Something I really do believe is that if we're going to have such a pulse and it should not be automatic. >> It should require the student to consult with an advisor. >> Because often when students get into serious trouble in their courses, it's because they haven't been getting good advice or they haven't been following good advice. >> So I would like to see if we do have something. >> I'd like to see that some provision that the student must at least consult with an advisor and the advisor has to recommend that this be be done. >> Yes. >> Yes. Buttery again, kind of volunteering. >> I just want to add to what both John Jose said. We have the current coming in place that allows students in addition to how grades are moved from the transcript. >> Problem is that I think there are a lot of advisors on campus that have no clue that that committee exists. >> Students don't know that it exists. And so it's a bit hit and miss as to whether a student realizes they have that option to tailor. >> And so we have this gap. >> We have nothing to that the student has in the way of a formal policy at the moment for dealing with special circumstances. And we have the extreme case of where they can actually petition to have their case heard individually. >> It seems like we need something in the middle. >> That's a formal policy that allows students to deal with difficult they may face, especially in that freshman here. >> Other comments, especially on a facet that we have not yet said? >> Yes. >> Jim Richards, again, I just I I've been sitting here considering policy number four that has been put up there. >> And the more I look at it, the less I like it. >> And the reason is it requires a pre-emptive move on the part of the student. At in some classes, you may only have a midterm and a final. >> So how does a student at that point have a good indication of what their final grade is going to be? >> I I just think that's back going to do enough in terms of of providing the option of removing a course that they've had significant difficulties, especially in the first two years. >> I I'm also kind of surprised that we're talking about some Geoff that you mentioned. >> Graduate courses. Well, it doesn't distinguish between graduate or undergraduate number four. >> Okay. I put a different head on and speak against that at the end. >> My comments are made clearly under the assumption that we're looking at undergraduate and typically the first two years of undergraduate or first year. >> But that's that's when the problems typically happen with these kids. >> And John, just so you know, I have a position who went through med school, undergrad first-time. >> And anytime you want to visit them, I'll give you their name because I'll take the one that I just graduated who didn't do that well as first-year. >> So yes. >> Danny, if you could move back to motion three, it would be helpful to get a sense of whether motion 12 or three appeals to this group. I mean, we have a good cross section of the campus here. I don't know if we should do a straw vote. >> That's probably not appropriate hearing. >> Well, Chuck could let us know if you got your gap already. >> I got gobbled by Chuck was but but the but which one? >> Now, there's all these motions are talking about only freshmen and only undergraduates. All three of the formal motions, your comments at kind of convinced me that UCS should not fluid motion number four forward, even though we thought it was clever, you've helped me understand why that one's probably not a good idea. >> And so it needs to be what we do needs to be more procedural. >> So then we're back to motion 32 or one. And if you the emotions one. >> Yeah. Well, I don't know. >> Did you want to comment on just one job? >> Not necessarily all that might've Brian MakerBot was absolutely honored when there are there's data out there that can tell it how many, how many students the last ten years have repeated cords? How many students lived ten years? >> It got c minus or more. >> We, I mean these are empirical facts. >> Then we can actually judgement, we can start to make some decision. >> One of the unintended consequences of these kids taking class over and over over his class on doing more and more and more. >> I think before we move to anybody, we ought to see what the numbers tell him. >> Well, ******** number three is only permitting >> A maximum number of students who take advantage of this is probably not thick, but last year there were 271 students, according to the registrar's data that retook courses. >> 42% of them got B minus or better when they retook the course. All of them had c minus or worse before they retook the course. But again, I'm all with Brian a general, more general question of what does any of this mean and why does it matter? >> I still haven't seen any. And so what does make a policy better? >> I don't know. I don't think we understand what the issue as well enough to know one way or the other whether this is an improvement on existing policy or not. Because I don't think we know what the empirical facts of the issue, we've heard some suggestions of what they might be, but I don't think we know. >> Yes. Our serverless and side1 Lerner College. Just something to throw out there too that I don't think this policy addresses is students who for whatever reasons ended up in, for instance, we get these occasionally engineering bomb the first year when they come into college. They don't want to repeat those courses. So there they are with a below to our GPA. And there in that predicament, they're not eligible to come into our college. And repeating those, it's not going to solve the problem, Yelp, and they start taking our courses, they often do considerably well. So that's another, a type of stating that is causing our incredibly Agassiz because they're not going to read the best courses yet. They're still going to be an academic difficult like you started dominate this. >> But I think besides our own internal statistics, it UD repeating courses. >> We should also learn about the practices of the other universities. >> Do they recalculate the GPA using their own algorithms? >> And if so, how do they? >> Because if it's a matter of us 3k imputing a GPA so that a 2.8 becomes a 3. >> But the university to which the student is applying, we'll use, will count all the grades. >> It really doesn't do us very much good, doesn't do our student very much good, was applying to go elsewhere, right? So I think that knowing what the practices are at the other universities would be helpful information? >> You type a biographical time? >> Yes. >> So we have that data. >> That's what's here in this spreadsheet. >> So we know we're not wanted admissions a big apart for graduate at all. I don't think we're talking about graduate. >> Split it with that was one of the reasons given for why we need this policy all for graduate admissions, rest right? That there are students who need to have at least a 3 for pre-med. >> They hadn't arrive at least a 3.5? >> Yeah, they do a decent American Medical School. >> Yeah. And we put our students at a disadvantage because other, other schools do have forgiveness. >> While several necessarily because the other because the bit school may recompute those anyway they make including in the lower grades. Right. >> They may so >> Only if they're against some of the referred to our plenty of recompute an aria. >> Well, I guess I'm not in favor of just wiping out the lowest grade. >> I just like just like I just think that I was just answering that. >> I think that question is yes, Naomi Nash, registrar exhausted. One of the things we're just talking about that came up in part. And one of the issues is that the student has to have the entire semester wiped off. So what if we were just talking about this, but what if there was an adjustment to parks to charge and their ability where perhaps they could sometimes look at an individual course removal rather than the entire semester things routine clerks. And so it wouldn't happen necessarily when there are these extenuating circumstances, an individual course that could be presented to curve. And then students can be considered for those when their IDs, unique circumstances without a peanut, entire policy, an entire repeat adjustment. And yeah, it might for some students, work in their, in their favor when it has an impact for the entire semester. But a particular course in a semester, it's just another idea is strong as someone who was chair of curve for seven here, Kirk has always had that ability. >> It's not prohibited from taking an individual course, but it's never once advice over the years to do it. Because when a student comes and says, I was sick, I was really sick this semester, but it only influence these two courses. I'd like to keep my bees and everyone's That makes no sense. >> And incurs never implemented that there could be an adjustment to any argument. >> He went to my high school. Preparation wasn't strong enough and it affected these two course dog instance. >> And it's a very serious accident. >> Was hospitalized, something to his hand. >> He was in an art class. You couldn't draw anymore, but he could take all the rest of the class and he didn't get fun. >> And so Kirk them L1 over kind of again, I don't think it's just bag them preparation. >> We know other bright, bright salt Shinzo. >> So developmental thinking back, I think, I guess my point was we're talking about kind of changing that set of criteria Kirkwood use, the student would have to make some argument and presumably the some some documentation, some letter of support from someone saying, yes, this is the case for this student. >> And I would just submit Kirchhoff broken in some other things. Maybe topics of the accepted students and advisors don't know what's on the website people exercise relative to having a policy in place, that still rather onerous process for students to go through. And there really isn't practical. >> Che Ma allegretto lunch from the honors program. >> I'm just curious. >> I mean, one of my concerns about a policy like this is it seems to me to be a fix, but we're not really addressing the problem and need. The problem is that we do have students who come under prepared or having difficulties, et cetera, et cetera. >> And in some ways, you know, lots of other schools put a lot of supports around students, which I know his resources. >> But but in some ways, I guess I'm concerned that a policy like this then we don't need the resources, we don't need those supports. And I think we do need those words. I mean, we all, everybody who went to tiptoes lecture understood that those schools that have those early alert warnings, etc. certainly are doing better by their students then having their students have to sit in a class and then repeated again, sometimes a year later because the courses only offered every other year. So I just feel like I I would like for and, you know, I don't know who, but something to happen around this whole issue of putting more structure in place to support our students who are having difficulties and, and not trying to put policies in place that, that really are genuinely going to necessarily help them in the way that maybe actually helping them be successful. >> Would certainly have one or two minutes hasn't spoken to speak in order to manage teenager. >> And thank you for following up what the last speaker said. >> I very much agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have learned the hard way where I'm teaching courses at any level, unless I thoroughly know who the students are because they previously taken the course. For me, I need to give a review test at the very beginning, usually at the second class meeting in the first week of classes based entirely on prerequisite material which they should have mastered before getting into my course. I give such tests and on that I get them graded as quickly as possible so that a few days later I can advise any students who seem to be very weekly Prepare that they're just not ready for my course. They should seriously consider taking another course instead and coming back and taking my course a semester or a year later. >> I think that this is very easy to do in the stem disciplines. >> You can give basic math tests. >> If your students are in Chem 104, for example, you can find out how much or how little they learned in Chem 103 by giving them a review test. >> I will yield the floor to the College of Arts and Sciences for their Sunday meeting.
2012-2013/facsen-grade_forgiveness-20130218.mp3
From Joseph Dombroski May 06, 2020
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